Gay Marriage- Did Cameron think this through?

Toko Black

Annectdote versus evidence.

You are attempting wishful thinking to be able to dismiss the fact that there are significant enough numbers within the religious establishment and christian churches to effect legislation and church cannon with a view to maintaing prejudices against women and homosexuals.

If there wasn't a significant number within the church, we wouldn't be having this particular discussion with regards to current proposed legislation and gay marriage.

EarthRod

I think you'll find his nibs has been trained to use a fountain pen and blotting paper these days, they are now really up-to-date. Quills and sand are gone and the birds are very pleased.

Happy Christmas to you and yours Karkus.

Sonic67

And flawed "evidence".

There are significant numbers amongst everyone (including atheists) for there to be prejudice against homosexuals.

karkus30

Same to you and yours. Remember a turkey isn't just for Christmas....its for Boxing Day, the day after, the day after, the day after....

Toko Black

There is not a significant enough amount of the general public prejudiced against homosexuals to effect a change in legislation to allow them to maintain those prejudices contrary to human rights laws.

There is significant enough amount of christians prejudiced against homosexuals to effect a change in legislation to  allow them to maintain those prejudices contrary to human rights laws.

According to government surveys:

People who were against homosexual relationships (2006)

Anglicans 20%
Catholics 23%
other Christians 32%
other religions 30%
No religion 14%

There is clearly a disproportionate amount of people with prejudice against homosexual amongst religious people.
However, it is not just a matter of the higher numbers of those prejudiced, it is an issue of religions, there organisational structure and impact on legislation. Religious organisations appear to be more susceptable to influence from extreme or none majority view points than secular ones.

Specifically, people with non majority views who are religious have a disproportionate effect on public policy than those who are non religious.
The CofE for example disproportionately inflates the power of those with non majority views and the government disproportionately inflates the political power of the CofE in public life.

Sonic67

My stepson was gay and was beaten up because of it. The people doing it weren’t doing it because they were religious. They were doing it because they were thugs who hated gay people.

Priceless. Elsewhere you keep saying that the Government census of people claiming to have a religion aren’t actually “really Christian.”

Are all the people in this survey passing your Christian test? All these people regular churchgoers? Only unless that has been checked out then you are including all your wishy washy not-really Christians who you actually consider to be pseudo atheists. So which is it? Please find a survey where all the people surveyed passes your numerous Christian tests and also are against Homosexuality.

Get back to me when you are happy they are all checked out committed regular church going Christians…

pragmatic

Ah the risk of statistics ... although this is a different survey to the government census surely?

Bl4ckGryph0n

Indeed. Exactly the behaviour I've seen so many times before. May as well shout at the stars, they don't move either.

Toko Black

The figures come from the same governement surveys ie the British Attitudinal Survey that also provides the more indepth questions that allow a better picture of actual beliefs such as 'are you religious?' or 'do you believe in God?'.

Of the 55% of people that ticked the Christian box on the 2011 census, only 44% actually believe Jesus was the son of God.
56% of people identifying themselves as christian don't actually believe the central and fundamental tennant of the faith.

I am sure some people will dance around the houses in an effort to claim all those that ticked 'christian' are actually christians in desperation to maintain the illusion that christian beliefs account for the majority of the population .... but it simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the facts.

Now, back to the percentages of people prejudiced against homosexuality.
From the BSA survey, 56% of people have no religion and 44% belong to a religion.
There is an extra 6% of Anglicans, 9% of catholics, 18% of 'other' christians and 30% of other religions over and above the baseline of 14% non religious people that hold prejudices against homosexuality.

Surveys repeatedly show that those who identify as christain yet are not  orthodox, don't attend church services or consider don't themselves  religious tend to be more liberal in their attitudes.
Now it is possible that a disproportionate number of people who ticked a faith box yet weren't actually religious are also homophobic.
That would skew the figures, however given the that generally those people are more liberal, the likely hood of this happening is incredibly unlikely.

It takes a considerable amount of wishful thinking and juggling reality to dismiss what the facts seem to show, that being:

Religious people are slightly more inclined to be prejudiced against homosexuals than non religious people.
Religious people are slightly more inclined to be prejudiced against homosexuals than the national average.
People indentify with certain religions for cultural or historical  reasons without actually really belonging to a faith or having beliefs.
Non believers out number believers and account for the majority of the population.

karkus30

I would agree with that. I would probably add that more none religious people or none practising are likely to be more violently opposed to homosexuals.

I witnessed an ex boss jumping out of his seat in a fit of wild rage while a group of us were sat in a restaurant. I thought he was seeing a robbery or some violence happening, as it turns out he was watching a group of cross dressers coming out of a nearby pub. I couldn't believe the sheer aggression, he was shaking with rage. He is well educated and is very social and well travelled so it was a shock to witness this outburst.