The HiFi Myth and Professional System Design

Member 639844

How is it not on topic. Is not adding electronic EQ applications and devices not part of professional system design?

I'm confused.

Member 639844

While it is apparent Rob obviously has a little bias towards his Lyngdorf system, I actually dont mind. I'm learning about this system, and the ideas behind its production. I find it fascinating how a system that seems to echo the structure of Bose system design can be so fantastic when done properly. For most of us its out of our price range anyway and this discussion is routing out the ins and outs of the method Rob obviously believes in.

For me this is the best way to get to the bottom of something. I also am starting to think that if you want to get a sub/sat system (like stuff Bose are trying to do) you need to spend a lot of money and include auto EQ. I'm not sure this cant be achieved with a traditional setup to though. One thing Ive found interesting is how removing the cabinets of the speakers is considered more accurate, when a lot of the instrument used to make music rely on the instruments 'cabinet' to produce the sound they make, guitars, violins, double bass, drums and so on and so on.

I hope this doesnt get closed. If someone like Rob is wrong (and I'm not saying he is at all), it takes a thread like this to get to the bottom of the matter and get a definitive answer either way.

Mark.Yudkin

Craig, sorry - could you open a new thread for this please (I think Alex would prefer it) where we can discuss your room questions without danger?

craigd

Sure Mark. A compressed version of my posts so far:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/hi-fi-systems-separates/1013062-lyngdorf-tdai-2200-room-correction.html#post9670906

alexs2

Don't worry...I'm referring to other posts etc that I've had to remove.

The message is not directed at most of the contributors to this thread.

Thanks.

The_Krell

So if you have, say, a budget turntable and replace it with an SME30/Sota Cosmos/Raven or whatever and turn off the room eq are you really saying you don't think it will sound any better?

craigd

I don't have a turntable budget or otherwise so this wasn't really a consideration when I made that comment. My music collection is entirely digital - i.e. lossless rips and CDs.

Interesting point though, as the Lyngdorf TDAI-2200 has a 96/24 ADC. So it could digitise the output from a turntable and apply the correction. With that high a resolution the digitiseation would have a negligible effect (IMO). I believe the room correction would yield an improvement in accuracy which is to my taste but may not be to others. When your room is very poor the significant benefits of room correction in tackling huge bass peaks for example, can far outweigh the more subtle benefits a high end turntable would provide.

Rob Sinden

Hi Moonfly

Obviously adding EQ devices with A/D and D/A conversion has the potential to add noise etc. to your system and I certainly found this a problem with the graphic equalisers I tried 10 - 15 years ago.

I've never heard anyone say they are aware of the Audyssey Sound Equaliser adding noise to a system and I think until you've heard a product like this set up in a surround system then you wont fully appreciate the difference it makes. If you haven't already done so you should read Phil Hintons review of this product.

I expected it to tame bass problems but in most rooms it also makes a big difference to the mid range and integration between the sub and main speakers. What I really didnt expect is to hear is such a huge difference in the surround information. There is a scene that Audyssey reccommend in Open Range where a thunderstorm hits. Turning the EQ on and off in my previous demonstration rooms was like toggling betwee stereo and surrond sound. It was remarkable. This really shows the importance of using full range EQ to ensure all the speaker in a system provide the same response at the listening position.

Until I'd heard how badly the room effects the mid and hf of timbre matched speakers at the listening position I'd never appreciated how much of a problem the room was having on my bass limited surround speakers.

The vast majority of Lyngdorf stereo systems that we sell use their room correction system built into a digital amplifer so there is no additional A/D or D/A conversion whether or not the EQ is being used. Ideally this is how EQ should be added to a system, rather than as an add on box.

In the 18 months or so I've been demming EQ systems I have used them in about 30 rooms. So far I've yet to dem a system where the EQ didn't provide a huge improvement in sound quality. Many old school hifi people seem to have so ingrained oversion to this idea but very, very few have ever tried a system like this at home. Those that have end up being the biggest converts to EQ around.

I'm trying to arrange doing this with any of the seasoned Forums members that live near me who have good stereo systems. I'd like them to hear for themselves what difference the system will make in their room to put my claims to the test.

Are there any takers?

Member 639844

Hi Rob,

I know about EQ and its benefits and believe in it myself. I have used my amps own Audyssey EQ as well as tuned my sub as best I can, all with the systems in built tuning options (no external boxes, yet) and Ive experienced the benefits first hand so thats not something I'll ever question.

What I'm most interested in is the .2 design and out of ordinary crossovers, as well as how this stacks up against something of a similar design like Bose. Those systems sound OK but fail in some areas, not least music playback, and I'm wandering if the same tell tale failings would be in the systems bloodline. That said it uses traditional sized drivers so perhaps this alone would cure that. Then again some would argue that for 13.5k it bloody should sound good.

I'm not sure you couldnt put a system together for similar money that included an auto EQ solution that sounded as good. I understand the logic of the principles the systems design is based on and it makes sense, but a lot of things can seem to make sense on paper. I also wander how the 2.2 system would work in a small room like mine (5x3). I know there are some issues, not least that the test sweeps of the auto eq have an echo when they pulse, even the sub. I'm not convinced any auto EQ cold fully fix this.

Out of interest, is the auto EQ of the Lyngdorf a complete in house design, or is the software created in conjunction with someone like Audyssey etc.

I cant really answer these for myself without coming for a listen, and even then wouldnt be totally convinced without a home demo and a room that can test the auto EQ's abilities. I'll follow with interest though on future developments, as I'm sure there wil be. FYI, I have heard a Yamah Z11 (5k), running an MA GS 5.1 setup in stereo mode (2.5k), in a demo room thats was designed to be a good room and I know how good that sounded. If the Lyngdorf could sound twice as good, in a problematic room, I would be very impressed. I'm not entirely convinced it would blow away something like a pair of MA Platinum floor standers coupled with a primare stereo amp, decent sub  and something like the new Audyssesy EQ pro thats on its way. For me that would be a fair test of extreme interest.

Rob Sinden

Of course the only way to settle this is by demonstration. Lyngdorf's room correction system is a complete in house design and their all digital electronics and 2.2 speaker systems are also designed by them.

The real test for me would be to put a £20k stereo using other alternatives in a room and do a back to back comparison of a complete Lyngdorf system. I'm totally confidant that the Lyngdorf system will outperform any alternatives using the "conventional" approach to stereo system design. I cant talk for the IB designs as I've never heard them however I note that they recommend EQ also.

I have been a hifi enthusiast for 25 years and I know the pros and cons of traditional hifi.

I've only had the facilities here open and fully functional for about 6 weeks. The response I've had to the Lyngdorf 2.2 stereo system has been remarkable. This is in a very good room that has no acoustic treatment in it.

The room next door has been designed as a money no object project for truely optimal acoustics. The systems in there sounds great and still benefits from full range room correction - however they cannot compete with the fidelity and transparency of the Lyngdorf system. I hope someone from the Forums will come and put this claim to the test soon.