The HiFi Myth and Professional System Design

MilkyJoe

That explains nothing in the context of your prosuct. I want you to explain the science of your product, and price it up for us.

Rob Sinden

Dear Blue Wizard

Thanks so much for your response. Perhaps I've made an arse of communicating what I intended, but is seems we broadly agree.

My emphasis is on the high end. However for people that can't or don't want to spend a fortune on getting a better audio system I still fervently believe that they'll learn more about how to get better sound by learning about the princiapls of sound reproduction than reading hifi mags or continually comparing product A with product B.

If I was in this position I'd probably contact the guys at RPG. Very often a diffuser or absorber will make a huge difference to a system and they are very cost effective. These guys will tell you what you need to know and sell you what is appropriate. By the way I have absolutely no tie in with this company RPG Europe - Acoustic Absorbing Panels and Diffusors.

The other point is that most people who are interested about hifi know little or nothing about acoustics. This includes people who have sold hifi for years -I know I deal with them every day. Whatever amount of money you want to spend I think if you are serious about sound, acoustics are just as important as equipment.

I've  recently built what I hope are the best listening rooms in the country and hope that anyone who is genuniely interested in the subject will come and have a listen. The room and system sounds great, but the point is room correction still makes a big improvement.

Finally I'd just like to pint out that the principal off correcting a system to match the rooms acoustics is sound and valid. If people haven't a good system that's fine but one day I'm certain that all high end systems will include this technology - clearly is creeping in to AV world already.

Amen

phil t

If you are removing frequencies electronically, as you must be since you talk of toggling on/off, then you must be doing it in the analogue or digital domain (no rocket science there).  I assume that it’s not analogue since the sheer number of components required to attenuate very specific frequencies, would be massively detrimental to the overall sound?  But then again if it’s digital, you have to pass the signal through an ADC and a DAC.  The ADC/DAC won’t have as much impact on the sound as an analogue device, but it will have some affect.

Since my ears aren’t “flat” and much of the live music I listen to is performed (and often recorded EQ less) in rooms that are acoustically flawed, why would I want to degrade what I already have?

CJROSS

Rob going by your language I don’t think you’re sorry at all, and your posting manner belittling other dealers/installers is not very savoury, even if you have some points about the way they conduct sales.

This is the part that you can’t seem to understand, many people, myself included like tailoring a system using their ears to their needs/preferences & room layouts without the need for an expensive EQ/PARC then getting better core components. You are simply pushing the importance of room correction over the kit used as you sell it from where I stand.


Well here we go - no we are not – I have not seen one post in this thread dismissing or labelling flawed, you need to understand that is not the case and whilst you paint that scenario, the problem is your absolute statements/sales pitch as universal truths about the gear you sell. I know plenty of chaps who use EQ/PARC and swear by it, but they accept people going a different route. Ryart seems like one of these guys on this forum.

If your posting style drives away people from this forum then I for one have a problem with that. I hope the moderation team here are looking at the content & style of your advertising posts – they don’t seem like advice to me, I see other dealers/installers here operating in a much more conciliatory fashion. Even if I disagree with their opinion I feel no need to comment. I feel this forum could overrun with advertisers that see your style and think it is acceptable to post inflammatory comments to suit their stock line, not a good long term situation for the forum IMHO.

Rob Sinden

I'm sorry if you dont like my tone, it really isnt intentional. I'd much rather be talking on the phone or face to face with people.

I'm have never, ever said my recommendations are the only route to getting a system that you'll love, but what I do stand by is that room correction is the only method I know of that will help provide truely accurate sound reproduction.

I think that the moment you start measuring systems you can see this is true.

By the way I talked with two of the main men at the Forums about what I was about to post before it went live and they were keen for me to do it.

I have not talked about products and I am not pushing brands on anyone. What I am trying to do is point out the problem that rooms create. I want people to be aware of how big this issue is and then start doing their own reserach in to why this is the case and possibly about how they can reduce the problem.

The_Krell

I think you missed the "?" at the end of the sentance. I didn't say you were but asked you if you were and also asked you what you meant my accuracy.

Haven't a clue

Yes and no. Most if not all speaker designers aren't idiots and know that virtually all their speakers are going to operate in an average living room with no treatments and therefore I would be amazed if this factor didn't get built into the speaker design.

You're assuming that we tweak cables to overcome the problems in the listening room rather than as a component in the hi-fi chain.

I think if you'd started your post with a statement that room tweaking and room equalization are an often overlooked area then your post might have come accross (certainly for me) as more clear in what you were trying to say.

On you web site you make the statement
"To demonstrate the benefits of our approach to system design we have built the UK’s finest demonstration rooms in Newbury, Berkshire. Only here can you experience audio systems that are truly indistinguishable from the live performance."

I'll give you the benfit of the doubt and write that off as marketing speak.
Ever been to a rock concert at The Royal Albert Hall? Sounds dreadful.
Small pub room with 80 odd people in it standing less than 2m away from the band and looking at them virtually eye to eye - awesome.

Its not just about the sound but the involvement.

Moving on...looking at a schematic of your room it appears to be rectangular. Now this is a dreadful design for a hi-fi room, parallel walls are a real no no. You obviously appreciate the problem "A more effective method of improving bass consistency is by playing all the bass frequencies through dedicated speakers (subwoofers) that can be moved in the room to match the acoustic properties of the space". Surely a better designed physical room would be even better with asymetric walls, floor and ceiling.

"Warner Bros, Universal, Paramount, 20th CenturyFox, Disney, Pixar, Dolby, DTS, THX and Lucasfilm all use M&K’s compact speakers and subwoofers to make their movies. Using the same speakers to listen to your movies at home will more faithfully reproduce movies than any alternatives."

So I need the same speakers/amp and bass bins that Steve Vai uses to more faithfully reproduce his music? Different set up for different artists? What happens when they change their amps over the years?

So basically in the world of home cinema installations and hi-fi you've decided that your differentiator/Key Selling Point is room equalisation and tweaking. Why not just come out and say it?

The_Krell

Please define "truely accurate sound reproduction"

Mark.Yudkin

Be careful here. Merely attenuating (or increasing) frequencies only works with single frequency sine waves, which makes for rather boring listening, although it works reasonably well in subwoofers. Although Rob's comparison was poor ("For me graphic equaliser are about as relevant as valve amps"), his implied, but badly communicated, point about the inadequacy of graphic equalizers is valid (and Rob: go listen to a pair of Quad II 80's, then choose better ways of saying what you're trying to say).

When dealing with real music, rooms and full frequency spectrums, the time dimension enters the equation: you need to compensate for the effects of interference between the direct and the reflected sound (and the reflection of the reflection, etc.) - sound travels at 343m/s (at 20° in dry air). This is a rather more complex issue - and one of the reasons why devices such as the Audyssey Sound Equalizer cost some USD 5000.

Rob Sinden

When I say accurate sound reproduction I'm talking about sound that isn't distorted by the room.

As such I'd say in this context "accurate sound" would be the sound that your speakers create without room distortion.

Rob Sinden

I've never said that you have to use M&K speakers to listen to movies. What I've said in our adverts and on my website is that using the same speakers that many of the worlds leading film makers use to make their films on will get you closer to what they intended than any alternative. Seems logical to me.

If you prefer something else, use something else.