Playstation 4k

criggy

It hasn't had the full announce and show but what look like genuine developer documents are online. I think Sony will showcase it very soon with all the leaks now.

BAMozzy

Having read through this, I think its important to also share this 312585554-PS4-5-NEO-pdf - its the leaked documentation to developers regarding 'Neo' and games. It too lists the specs but as we know, some specs could be changed between that and the final release - such as swapping out the Jaguar CPU for a 'Puma' or raising the GPU clock speed, maybe even increasing the memory bandwidth.

We all know that modern games have little chance of running at 4k native - especially at 60fps. We know the 9tflop GTX1080 struggles to do this with all settings at Max/Ultra. However given the choice of 900-1080p upscaled to 2160p OR 1200-1440p upscaled to 4K, I know which I prefer. However it seems Sony are looking at 1800p upscaled as a minimum and using 'checkerboard' rendering as 1 method to achieve this. Even if they settle for 1440p, its still better than 1080p. The new architecture inside the GPU is a lot more efficient and its 4.2tflops could seem a lot more than the 2.5x leap from the 1.86tflops of the PS4.

As for comments regarding a 'PS5', of course Sony don't yet know if the PS5 will be a thing. The way gaming can change, its difficult to see that far ahead. The way I see it right now though is that Sony are likely to release a PS5 - maybe as early as Q4 2018 - not as a response necessarily to Microsofts Scorpio BUT because the PS4 is 5yrs old by that point. There is always a 'cross-over' of generations and therefore, allowing for a 2yr crossover, the 5yr point sounds right given the current power/performance of the PS4. The fact the 'Neo' is also limited by its inferior base unit - by that I mean that only games/features/DLC that must run on the Base unit - it can't have 'unique' software, then it makes sense for Sony to bring out a PS5 that is not tied to the PS4 generation. You won't get an 'iteration 2' so to speak which has also been mentioned - games can't be released as minimum Neo required - that would certainly annoy the PS4 community after being told the Neo won't get ANY extra or exclusive content that won't also be on the PS4. In some ways that also goes to explain why Sony aren't reacting to NS's Scorpio - making the Neo even more powerful. Its powerful enough to make a difference and not too powerful that a PS5 would seem a pointless upgrade. If VR does take off, the PS5 would also make a lot of sense to release sooner. The fact VR on both the PS4 and Neo is 'hampered' by the PS4 (no game can release on just the Neo), we could see Sony releasing PS5 to deliver 'bigger' VR games.

I see MS on a different path anyway. They seem to be taking a PC type pathway. The Scorpio to me seems like a 'cross' between an iterative and next gen console. XB1 Games will obviously play at enhanced levels, your entire library will move with you BUT it will also get exclusive games/features. Regardless of what MS are saying, the Scorpio is the ONLY Xbox that will have VR and VR games. Maybe all non-VR games in the first year will be playable on XB1 too but I can see a point where games will be minimum Scorpio required. Every 3-4 years MS will bring out a new Console and it will be like upgrading your GPU. Like on PC when you upgrade, your existing games could run better. new releases will still run on the older GPU but there will come a point when the 'minimum' specs are beyond Scorpio. MS have said they are moving away from Generations and want to make console owning more like PC's - in that you don't have to start building a game library from scratch every time you buy a new gen console.

As for 4k, I don't know exactly what Sony are planning with the Neo. I believe it will have a 4k HDR Bluray player (like the XB1s) and the 'rumours' indicated that Sony were looking at the $400 (£350) price point with a 500GB HDD. If that is the case, then the Neo will be the same price as the 2TB Slim but have 3x the raw power. The Neo could have an extra 4K streaming option - Sony's own that was launched on Sony 4k TV's only. The Neo could open up a greater market for them as not every Neo owner owns a Sony 4k TV. As far as the launch date, Sony specified that ALL games releasing on PS4 from September must have a 'Neo' mode. September releases must have a day 1 patch (if its not built in at the start) to include that but from October, every game must have the Neo mode built into the game. That would indicate, as rumours have also speculated, that Neo is likely to release in the next 2 months - certainly before Christmas.

As a gamer with both a PS4 and XB1 as well as a 4k HDR TV, I see very little reason to upgrade my XB1 to the 'slim' just for a 4k HDR Bluray player. Its probably the cheapest and I wouldn't need the 2TB model as I have a 5TB External HDD anyway. The fact it doesn't improve the gaming experience and I know what 720-900p games look like when stretched to a 4k resolution. HDR is a non-factor too. Whilst it looks great, I don't know if this works in 'game' mode on my TV. Having the greater colours and contrast ratio could also show up the much lower resolution too if it does work. I also see NO reason to buy it for a year only to replace it when the Scorpio comes along. For me the Neo makes more sense. Its not only giving me a 4k HDR player but also offering an enhanced gaming experience. I don't want to play games like Battlefield 1 at 900/60 when I could play at 1440/60 (or 1800p if they manage to hit that without affecting the frame rates - which cannot be less or worse than the base version). I can't wait to see how great Horizon looks at a higher resolution too - it looks great now of course. Point is Neo is offering me a reason to upgrade from a gaming perspective. I know its not likely to last '5 years' from a gaming perspective without being replaced but it will likely be my primary console for the next year at least...

criggy

I'm not getting my hopes up for spec bumps. Not even slight clock speed increases.

It even states twice in the documents that the Dev kit proto 2 and test kit proto 2 are final spec. Add to this that the dev kit proto 2 was submitted to Japan's equivalent to the FCC in December last year and that Neo games are to be submitted starting in two weeks time and this thing is complete and very close to going into full production. My money is on a mid November launch right now.

BAMozzy

We have no idea when this document was written - for all we know it could have been a year ago before these kits were released - i.e around the very first devkit time. I would be surprised if they do stay with Jaguar - that's really pushing it to run at 2.1ghz and the Puma would be more comfortable at this speed. Its also possible the GPU could be pushed out to 950mhz maybe even up to 1,000mhz - Its still greatly underclocked from it normal speed. It wouldn't be the first console to have a boost - the XB1 was given a bit of a boost between its reveal and release - Its CPU and GPU received a bit of a clock speed increase... It doesn't make sense to boost it too much as that could make the PS5 seem less impressive when that eventually comes.

I still think its going to be released by mid October - maybe before the PSVR. A reveal at TGS and a release soon after... Its no longer than Microsofts Slim which was announced mid June and releasing 6wks later...

criggy

Actually BAMozzy I think it can be pretty accurately stated this document was presented to devs at GDC in March ('10,000 foot view' slide). I would also guess the big 3rd party devs (EA/DICE, Activision, Ubisoft etc) with Oct-Dec '16 games already had this info before GDC. This document is also 99.9% the one Giant Bomb and Digital Foundry had read and wrote articles about. Their silence on this document leaking to the masses is deafening....

I agree that clock speeds could be increased under certain circumstances but for me it isn't Sony's style. Neo is 'just' a high-end PS4 or a Focus RS to PS4's Zetec! I remember PS4's final specs being leaked in June 2012 and the TF number and clock speeds remained the same. For Xbox One's small clock increases Microsoft were backed into a corner after the backlash of spec wars and luckily for them they had a conservative design. Big box, external PSU, big HSF and relative low power. I imagine they asked AMD and the Xbox engineers how much could clock speeds be increased without having to change anything in the design. Answer: 53MHz GPU and 150MHz CPU. Not a lot!  

As for release it is a tough one with PSVR in the mix. Sony have said they like Apple's available now model of release and revealing at TGS in mid-September would have it release before PSVR. I think a reveal at PGW at the end of October and release in mid-November is slightly more likely. They could also delay until next year if they wanted to.

BAMozzy

Of course I know that this is nothing more than a more powerful PS4 but still PS4. That doesn't mean that a few tweaks to those specs couldn't occur before release. The Jaguar chip for example seems like it is over-clocked by quite a margin and that surprises me. The Puma for example would make much more sense and uses the same architecture so could easily replace that in the final build. Its still using the same architecture so wouldn't affect developers or 'dev kits' which may not have the same power or cooling issues. It could be a 'place-holder' for the initial dev-kit builds to gibe the developers a bit more time until Sony can supply Dev-kit 2 out to them.

The rumours and leaks that go back to this also seemed to initially indicate that the Neo would actually launch before PSVR arrived - which we now know to be Oct 13th. I still think they will look to release around this time - give or take a few weeks. It seems odd that Sony would be insisting that all games have to have a Neo mode in every game on release from October and those from September must have a 'day 1' patch if the Console isn't releasing until mid/late November or even as late as 2017. Why insist a game has a 'day1' patch in September if the console isn't imminent? I could see Sony insisting that September releases must be patched to include a Neo mode by a set date (like Oct 31st) in preparation for a release in November onwards but to stipulate a Day 1 patch and every game in October onwards must ship with a Neo mode would indicate a late September early October release.

It could of course be delayed until Q1 2017 but I think Sony will want to hit the Holiday season. It may also have a knock on effect onto their future plans. I still think we will see PS5 by Q4 2018 - 5yrs after PS4 launched. If that's the case, that's 2yrs after the Neo but if that is delayed, it will seem a lot closer to each other - the difference between over 2yrs - 2016 to 2018 or under 2yrs 2017 to 2018. Obviously if Sony do hold out to 2019 (though I can't see it with the PS4's power and allowing a cross-over phase), the principal still applies.

To me all indications are pointing to a release date up to and including Oct 13th 2016. I would be surprised if its released in Nov/Dec and shocked if its not out this year....

criggy

I agree that there are tweaks but Puma and Jaguar are the same. It is just a natural refinement and wouldn't be a upgrade outside of the clock increase. As for the dev kits, I doubt they would need to stick Jaguar in them as a place-holder as Puma is the same chip and has been around a long time (mid 2014) and like I said before the documents wouldn't state 'final spec' if they weren't. I have read one article that claims the CPU isn't Jaguar but what he terms 'Zen Lite LP' and his reasoning is that Jaguar being a planar design would mean redesigning the CPU from scratch for 14nm FinFET at great cost/effort. It is a bit of a conundrum because I'm 100% sure Neo will be using 14nm FinFET yet I'm also sure that changing the CPU architecture would break existing PS4 game compatibility without a lot of work. Neo is said to work out the box in 'base' PS4 mode. That, IMO, can only be achieved with an identical CPU.   

I agree it more likely to be released this year than early next year. Sony today released their Q1 2016 (1st April-30th June) results and they shipped 3.5 million PS4 and their forecast for the year ending 31st March 2017 is 20 million. With three pieces of hardware to choose from (PS4, Neo, PSVR) to state such a high PS4 forecast must mean Neo is coming sooner rather than later even accounting for PS4 getting a price cut and Neo to come in at £350.  

One of the reasons I think Neo could launch in mid November like PS4 is because it is when people spend money. Black Friday/Christmas is perfect when you have 2 new and 1 existing piece of hardware to sell. You don't want to be launching a £350  piece of hardware in Jan/Feb with people still recovering from Christmas and March would be cutting it fine if they want to hit 20 million...

BAMozzy

I know Puma and Jaguar are basically the same but the specs specifically stated 'Jaguar' but the clock speed is more indicative of Puma. What I meant by that is that Sony, when the created their 'dev kits' just over clocked their 'Jaguar' CPU's - the ones they have for the PS4 but the final could use Puma as its totally compatible but does have a better efficiency and higher potential clock speed. The last thing Sony want is a CPU running above the recommended clock speed and leading to hat issues or 'YLOD'. You would think that a form of the 14nm FinFET chip would be ideal and another reason the 'Jaguar' chip 'could' be a place holder. I would be surprised if there was any 'significant' compatibility issues with existing PS4 games - you don't often get incompatibility when you replace a CPU with a more powerful and different architectural CPU with PC games (it could be a case of adding a different driver for Neo mode) but the old games should still run as well at least. Its not like the new CPU's are incapable of certain functions that the old CPU's provide. Most games are primarily GPU based and as long as the CPU can receive and handle the instruction to the same standard as the Jaguar, compatibility shouldn't be an issue. New games (from Sept) could use a 'different' driver if it detects the Neo specs I guess.

The advantage of releasing in September/early October from a Sony perspective, is that the extra month or two before 'Black Friday' could bring in a bit more 'revenue' before the 'black friday' sale. You will get a lot of day 1 sales and a relatively steady sales figures and then another jump on Black Friday (if it has any deals). Its not in Sonys interest to release 'late' as people who may not be aware (parents for example) buy their Christmas Presents 'early' (not everyone waits until Black Friday) or to release AFTER the big games for those who may not yet of bought a PS4 - Big games can generate console sales - and miss the market. Its possible that people may buy the XB1s just because its the only 4k media console and leaving it too late could lose a few sales to MS as a result. People will want to buy as soon as it releases to take advantage of any 'boost' to games as they are released. I know November has a few big releases but so does Sept (Fifa 17, FFxv) and Oct (Mafia 3, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Last Guardian, BF1, TF2, Skyrim) that should have a Neo mode. I know after Christmas things can be 'tight' financially but games like Horizon: Zero Dawn could be a console seller for the Neo. Of course this is speculation but I still think it makes more sense to release sooner rather than later this year.

The fact that the Neo actually benefits games rather than the Slim which is just an upgrade to its 'media' capability essentially, offers more reason for current PS4 owners to upgrade. It looks like it will still benefit those with 1080p TV's where as the Slim only benefits 4k TV owners (and not every 4K TV can deliver HDR). Unless you prefer the aesthetics or your current XB1 is broken, unless you own a 4k HDR TV, it offers little reason to upgrade. If you have a decent Sound system,  you are better off buying a dedicated 4k HDR Bluray drive anyway.

This means that Sony have 40m  possible buyers for the Neo. Obviously not all will upgrade but a number certainly will regardless of whether they have 4k or not. The longer its for sale before March, the more likely they are to hit their Target.

silvercue

Ps5 will not be released in 2018. No chance whatsoever. I was listening until that.

BAMozzy

Why not? The PS4 will be 5 years old by then and its possible that 'some' games won't run on it bu that point. Not just 'TV' based games but also some of the VR games because the PS4 isn't exactly very powerful by today's standards - its GPU is effectively 5years old now. I really can't see the PS4 lasting another year (until Q4 2019) and still delivering the full game (maybe with a few sacrifices - a bit like BO3 on PS3) because it hasn't got the power. Releasing aPS5 in Q4 2018 would still allow a year or 2 for cross-over - games that release on both generations as per every new generational release. There is NO way the PS4 will last as long as the PS3 did!

When developers start pushing the new technology, developing bigger and better VR games too. These won't run on the PS4 and so Sony either misses out or releases its next generation hardware. These games will run on Scorpio and maybe could run on Neo BUT won't come to Neo because they can't run on PS4!