Gandhi The Racist Must Fall....

Pacifico

Interesting idea - its OK to commemorate people who believed in slavery but its not OK to commemorate someone who fought to retain slavery?

Dont you think you are dancing on the head of a pin there philosophically speaking?

Toko Black

Nope.

I am not personally condoning OR condemning either.
I am merely pointing out that:

A statue that is specifically built to commemorate someone FOR fighting to retain slavery or specifically because they supported slavery is not the same as a statue of someone for a non slavery related reason.

Specifically versus incidental.

The rights and wrongs of statues and memorials that are linked to racism and slavery directly, loosley or by proxy are open to debate, what is not is that one is specifically and fundamentally commemorating slavery and racism, the other is not, regardless of whether the person was a racist or not, because it is incidental to the reason for it existing.

It is that false equivalency that I am arguing against.
I do not have a stake in the history of the US nor it's contemporary social problems with regards to how it's citizens feel about the civil war and slavery.

Personally, I agree that if a statue, commemoration etc is or was specifically created to honor a person, organisation or event:

1) for their contribution to defending, enforcing or otherwise supporting what are universally considered to be abhorrent practices such as slavery.
2) that the abhorrent practice is still or closely related to a devisive issue for that society.
3) that there are people with direct family experience of that abhorrent practice (person, parent, grandparent).
4) that those people with direct family experience object to those commemorations.

Then it's perfectly reasonable to request they be removed and I would support that request were it in my society/country.

raduv1

Rip em all down I say and erase them from history as all they be is a flash point for a faction, belief and or region that blends into one hatred over another when the actual history of the subject is lost on most.

Maybe Trump is right as I'm sure George Washinghton should be erased as positive that bugger had 300 plus slaves ( oops servants ) on his estate .

Pull em all down .........free speech an all .

mtenga

Unlike Washington or Jefferson Gandhi never owned slaves nor fought on the wrong side in a war to perpetuate slavery. But clearly he was no friend to the black people of South Africa. So on balance, just, leave the statue

On a different, but related subject, my favourite author is the great futurist HG Wells but even he believed in Hitler style eugenics and the inherent superiority of certain races over others. One day in a better future society we will look back and see how dreadful most of these historic icons really were and the awful times they lived in. Perhaps they'll just then be seen for what they were and replaced by better heroes. Given the ongoing racial problems in the world and in particular within the USA, who fancy themselves as the champions of equality and freedom, seems reasonable to me for them to want the confederate epitaphs torn down. We in this country should also rename all the major streets in places such as Liverpool named after those who profited from slavery.

krish

I find public statues of politicians unnecessary, regardless of their supposed achievements. I just bunch them together with the same monuments erected by the old USSR and most dictators.

Now notable (non-social) scientists, artists etc I have no problem with - e.g. Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Paul Dirac, Francis Crick, John Lennon, Freddie Mercury, Eric Morecambe, Bobby Moore et al.

Pacifico

I understand all that, but it doesnt change the basic beliefs of the individual. Lee was against slavery (he didnt own any) and was against the Succession of the Souther States. But he was in favour of the Sovereignty of the States so agreed to fight on whatever side the State of Virginia chose to join.

Ben Franklin had over a hundred slaves and didnt even free them when he died.

So who was the more honorable person?

Pacifico

Well so did the guy who founded the welfare state, William Beveridge and most of the Labour Party of the time. It was a fairly common belief.

Jezza99

It's only a matter of time before these revisionists are demanding that all Churchill statues are torn down, on the basis that he was a colonial warmonger

VR6

... and a racist lets not forget.

krish

No need to remove it, the occasional defacing is more than sufficient, the grass mohican hairstyle was my personal favourite.