Stop Funding Hate

Jezza99

Why are you giving up your entitlement to free money?

Jezza99

Exactly.

KiLLiNG-TiME

Not a discussion I am prepared to have here thank you.

Bl4ckGryph0n

Really? Seriously.

So my hunch was spot on, you really do not understand the difference. And as you don’t understand a rather elementary difference like that then there is simply no point discussing it further.

Bl4ckGryph0n

I’m sorry but I seriously don’t feel bad when I contribute to my pension. Likewise I don’t feel bad when I’m using one or more of my ISAs. Likewise my grandparents didn’t feel bad either when planning ahead for their legacy. Nor are my wife’s parents giving away their legacy ahead of when it’s too late to manage it. I also didn’t feel back avoiding taxes when utilising the benefits created for green energy vehicles.

Although I voluntarily pay more now by having a nice and powerful but rather polluting vehicle.

Just a few examples of every day tax avoidance. I find it seriously strange that anyone could consider any of that bad.

Trollslayer

Plus I am investing globally and will be spending my money in the UK - patriotism.

krish

^^^ So glad that wasn't #patriotism
- one of my rational/irrational annoyances (I blame the dumbing down media)

Toko Black

The big problem here is that everyone is somewhat both right and wrong about tax avoidance being good/bad or neutral because everyone is using slightly different definitions or personal takes on what avoidance means and at the same time contrasting that with varying views on what is moral or not.

-> From avoidance being purely the practice of avoiding paying more than most people would agree that you should according to both the law and morality, all the way to the other end of the spectrum of avoidance being exactly the same as evasion in all but it's legal status.

There could be 4 different categories or variations of how we use and apply the word 'avoidance' to tax.

1) Ethical Tax Avoidance (avoidance(E)) - paying what you should and avoiding paying more than is fair according to not only the tax law, but also according to the spirit of that law.
Example: claiming back the VAT on the office furniture you bought and use only for work.

2) Unethical Tax Avoidance (avoidance(U)) - avoiding paying any more than is legal.
Example: claiming back the VAT on the office furniture you bought and mainly use for personal purposes - like the desk, chair you and your family use to play computer games on in your spare room, but claim it as 'business expenditure' because you 'claim' you do your accounting and business admin at it, and because you might do once or twice a year, you can legally justify it.

3) Amoral Tax Avoidance (avoidance(A)) - avoiding paying any more than is legal and disputing there is any real difference between Ethical and Unethical Tax Avoidance or morality simply doesn't come into it.

4) Moral Tax Avoidance (avoidance(M)) - avoiding paying any more tax than is legal is a moral imperative.

Personally, when I complain, argue or talk about tax avoidance, I am generally doing so as avoidance(U) i.e those people and organisations that utilise loop holes, unintentional flaws or limitations of the tax laws to pay as little as possible. Evasion in all but a legal technicalities.

There are however others on the forums and in the wider world that hold or take the position of avoidance(A) or even avoidance(M), so if we all just used the term tax avoidance, we would be going around in circles and on completely different pages unless we all knew precisely what each of us was personally meaning by 'tax avoidance' and where we stood.

On a final note, there are those who consider tax avoidance(U) to be bad, but scaled and for the most part, would not bother too much about Joe Smith the Plumber getting a new inkjet printer without paying VAT even though it's for his home use.
However, they would feel quite strongly about multi millionaires, billionaires and large corporations avoiding paying massive sums of money tax by legal but unethical means.
I personally fall into that category - I suggest it is wrong to fiddle the VAT on a plumbing job, but I'd tend to turn a blind eye to it .... but someone who earns £10 million a year doing the same is taking the pee.

rancidpunk

I think there's a world of difference between investing in ISAs and pensions, government sanctioned investments, and paying your accountant to look for unlocked backdoor routes to avoiding tax.

I would safely wager that those who have no issue with tax avoidance would take issue with those who legally maximise their benefits through similar backdoor routes.

On topic, shocking I know, good on Paperchase for listening to their customers. At least the ones who don't actually shop at Card Factory, too apoplectic in their rage at anyone who veers anywhere left of far right to be able to type anything resembling a coherent response.

Bl4ckGryph0n

Why make it so complicated and define new terms. 2, 3 and 4 is evasion as simple as that. Don’t get why 1 has the word ethical added to it, or even avoidance. VAT is a business administrative process where the vat registered entity is collecting tax on behalf of the government. In return for the effort in they can retain some of that. That isn’t avoidance as if they hadn’t had to collect it there would have been nothing to held back.