Customs Union

springtide

I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong.
What checks were done on various lorry loads of products I've had pass back and forth between N.I into ROI this week?
No physical checks were done at any point of the transportation, so who knows what was in those lorries?

While you are at it, can you also explain how people who are emotionally involved should 'get over themselves', unless you have some some of memory loss solution as well.

I'm trying very hard not to be insulting to you, but I suggest you try and understand the issue before claiming to have found a solution.

Here's a good starting point.

apolloa

Then you have no understanding of the troubles or the extreme effort it took to bring about the Good Friday Agreement. This isn't about people getting over themselves either. The reality is Northern Ireland is split and it can lead to violence when the delicate balance the GFA bought about is fiddled with. Sir John Major spoke at length last year about the risk May was taking by doing a deal with the DUP. That's a man whose had direct experience of the hardmen as he called them of Northern Ireland.


If the EU decides we've made the border too soft, then they'll harden it. Which will directly effect the UK. Might not be on the same scale as the potential of using motorways as lorry car parks though.  


May put us in this position by doing a deal with the DUP. As I said Major warned against it.
The DUP still has links to Paramilitary groups.

There is nothing to get behind at this stage, we have no control on what the Government is negotiating or the civil war that's ongoing within the Tory Party.
We simply do not know what shape Brexit is going to take with a deal or without one. Once we know what Brexit actually is, then that's when people will either get behind the new reality or campaign to rejoin the EU in earnest.

Sonic67

Life is too short!

Bl4ckGryph0n

As I said, I’m not emotionally involved and have decades of actual experience. You keep on repeating physical inspection, I’ve hinted many a time before that a modern border doesn’t have to be like that. I’ve been debriefed 2.5 years ago but are still under the osa. I will not disclose further details than what is in the public knowledge. But there you go, you’ve heard it from myself over the years, and also the former Director General. Entirely your choice what you do with it.

And no there doesn’t need to be memory loss, one should never forget. But it is good to move on, and don’t use it as an excuse to stop progress. And don’t worry about being insulting. I’ve had to many of these discussions in real life with colleagues from that part to know it is emotionally laden. The anger and aggression really comes out at this topic. I remember one colleague who had to go for a walk to avoid hitting me and and a few of my colleagues. It just demonstrates it over and over again that the thinking isn’t rational and logical, but driven by emotions. As long as that continues it will always remain a problem.

Dony

So what you are saying is that in theory the answer is there, but for some strange and unknown reason your colleagues and former director general are going to sit on the answer and not tell anyone? That just seems too far fetched for me to comprehend given the border issue has been the crux of Brexit since before many of us voted. Where is the benefit in hinting at a solution, why not come out and tell us what it is?

The thinking is not always driven by emotion, but also by fear and frustration. Hearing comments like those highlighted in the video clip I posted, or you telling the Irish populace to 'get over themselves' frustrates/angers me. Yes, these are emotions, but emotions garnered from experience.
I was born in 1969, raised by parents who were treated as second class citizens, lived through the troubles and am now bringing up a family in peaceful surroundings. I'm not naive enough to think that there won't be ramifications to a hard border. I've a 17 yr old son who is at that impressionable age just as the sh*t is about to hit the fan. I don't want him faced with difficult choices that I had to make at that age. You say our thinking isn't rational or logical, I'd say it very logical, albeit from a different perspective from your logic.

If you understand the Irish, you will know what makes us the emotional souls that we are, the land of saints and scholars, poets and musicians. If you don't understand the Irish, which I suspect is more likely given your comments, you'll will continue to view us a being difficult and stubborn.

EarthRod

Sure, that's a romantic view and is all well and good.

However, sectarianism and segregation and discrimination between religious groups as well as the underlying violence remains a problem in NI.

The good thing IMO is that the culture is broad and complex, linking aspects of shared community with both the RoI and mainland Britain. Bearing in mind also the common preference of being an independent (devolved) state.

This might be disagreeable, but your post proves @Bl4ckGryph0n's point about emotion IMO, although he somewhat overstated (OTT) his point ​

Dony

I agree with you to an extent. The word Emotion is multi faceted. My emotions regarding the border issue at present are fear, frustration, anger. Whereas pre-Brexit they'd have been based on hope, happiness, relief.
To ask someone to discount those emotions in favour of getting behind an unknown solution is a bit foolhardy if you ask me.

Bl4ckGryph0n

No that is not what I was saying. I was responding to a question you asked about current border controls, and you challenged that in your opinion none physical checks are present. And I agreed with that but went on that there is a lot more to it than physical checks, hence a frictionless border is possible. It's just that the moment anyone mentions the B word it becomes an issue. As I say the implementation is doable, the resistance against doing so is a human emotional one.


Ahem, aren't those emotions as well?

I appreciate that, I honestly do. But 'you' have a choice, surely it isn't much of a choice to keep living in the past.

For a personal level I can wholly understand the logic. From a not being emotionally involved level it makes no sense as you'll always be on the edge and can never change anything. To me that seems that nothing has changed and the current situation is just being tolerated.

We all have our crosses to bear; and there comes a point one has to let go of the past.

So what was I saying about emotional objections There is nothing wrong with that, and I do understand it. My point is just that you can be both and choose to move on. Or you can choose not to. That is a choice. But threatening a whole nation with violence when not getting 'your' way is never going to get much symptahy nor support.

You can have borders and be emotional, borders come in all shapes and sizes with a whole range of different experiences. A border doesn't have to be a bad thing. Damn just think of those women in uniform, I think they look hot

Dony

This discussion started for me when I asked for a working example of a post Brexit border solution and you compared it to today's border (which ironically is the border that's going to change ). You've responded to my question, but still haven't answered it due to some sort of confidentiality agreement. Perhaps people are getting emotional (angry/frustrated) because no workable solutions are being put in front of us?

You also ask me to move forward and stop looking back. But again, when recent history tells me that anytime a British Government runs roughshod over the will of Irish people (bear in mind the result of the vote here in N.I and the feeling towards Brexit in ROI), then sadly there's always a negative outcome. Any goodwill between the British and Irish governments is being eroded and couple that with the fact the DUP are in bed with the government and I'm sure you'd agree that's a cause for concern moving forward. If you keep poking a bear with a stick, you'll get a reaction.

As for the current situation, life over the last 20 yrs has been incredibly positive for the majority, myself included. The result of the Good Friday Agreement was a resounding Yes in favour of moving away from the past. Unlike Brexit, we knew exactly what we were voting for after years of difficult negotiations. If you've ever been in Belfast before and since the GFA, then you'd know what a positive change there's been. From my perspective, it's Brexit that's going to drag us back to the past.

Should all that experience count for nothing and be dismissed as an irritable itch?
Don't forget the old phrase “Hindsight is a wonderful thing but foresight is better, especially when it comes to saving life, or some pain!”

Foresight comes from knowledge and experience, not theoretical solutions.

pcaddy

Ah Brexit, I have a friend and she voted leave to get the £350 million a week into the NHS, I've explained to her a couple of times that it's not going to happen, that they've said as much in interviews on Newsnight among other programs, and it makes no difference she still believes that the NHS is going to get the money or they wouldn't have had it all down the side of that bus and said so when interviewed. WOW she's in for a big surprise, politicians lie.
My mate who comes round on Thursdays to watch films voted leave too, he told me he couldn't belive leave had won as he'd only voted leave to give the government a kicking. I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy people by the middle of next year.
By the way I voted remain, reading this thread you'd think I was one of a few not 48% of the voters. Now we'll just have to sit tight and see what the outcome will bring. Personally I think that it's likely to be chaos.