It’s all very well saying “better the devil we know” but it’s not really a case of the devil we known, is it?
Look how much things have changed in the forty years we’ve been in, depending on who you listen to we were voting to stay in a common market, but look how much more feature creep there’s been since then.
Can anyone say with any degree of confidence where the EU will be in 5, 10, 20... years? Assuming it even still exists?
Again, depending on who you listen to there might be an EU army, Turkey may or may not join, they’re looking to expand Eastwards i was reading this morning. How many of those to the East are going to be net contributors?
If the question was do you want to leave or remain with exactly what we have now, no more, no less, then many people (maybe even myself) might well have chosen to vote Remain instead.
Thanks for your summary.Not sure it needed the aggressive sign off but I appreciate the effort.
That's the first I've read about the EU taxation laws so I've just done some investigations.From my first search, I brought back two particular results which address the statement of the EU forcing the UK VAT.
Result one - Daily Telegraph Article from June 2016;
We cannot set fair taxes as long as Britain remains in the EU
Clearly a passionate anti-EU article that leads with the headline, "We cannot set fair taxes as long as Britain is in the EU".It lays out a similar argument to the one you put above and specifically highlights the "Tampon tax", and reduced tax rates on domestic fuel then leads on to a bit of a ramble about Corporation Tax avoidance and the EU taking sides with the companies attempting to avoid tax (rather than focusing on the actual companies themselves?).But, the underlying theme of the article is that the EU forces the UK to set higher tax rates because it's part of the same club.Ok, seems like a pretty conclusive article.However, there's a summary box at the bottom which states;
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At a glance | What Brexit will mean for… your money, investments and currency
UK taxes and state pensions are set by the UK Government, so there is no change anticipated in those areas.Isas are exclusive to the UK too, so would not be at risk.The Financial Services Compensation Scheme protects deposits of up to £75,000 per bank, and £50,000 at investment and mortgage firms. Compensation limits are harmonised across the EU. After leaving, the UK would have free reign to raise or lower these.It is unclear exactly what the UK equity markets will do in the run up to Brexit. For example, falls in the value of the pound could stand to benefit companies with high proportions of foreign income. However, domestically focused sectors would stand to fall, and there would be a fog of trade uncertainty to contend with.Uncertainty may hold back British markets in the run up to Brexit. Markets could also be swayed by credible polls or information that show a change to the status-quo as the date grows near.***********************************************************************
I've highlighted the first statement.So, which one is it?
The second alternative result I got from the same search is a BBC 'Reality Check' article;
Does the EU control UK VAT rates?
This begins by summarising the option available to the UK Government (that it chooses not to implement)
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Reality Check verdict: EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%, so the government could reduce it by up to 5% today if it wanted. Domestic fuel is on a special list of pre-approved goods and services that are subject to lower VAT rates and it would require the agreement of all other EU members to reduce it further.
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It also addresses the "Tampon Tax" and it appears that the proposal to cut that tax to 0% has been agreed with by EU and is being progressed?
"The EU is currently dealing with allowing the UK to lower the VAT on sanitary products to 0%. The EU finance ministers have endorsed the plan, which the European Commission pledged to finalise in 2016."
According to what I can find, the tax on sanitary products was reduced to 5% in 2001 and is standardised across all EU member countries as part of the trading block, which is the point of the EU.
Whatever the examples are, we are taking things in isolation: ie taxation, tariffs, impact on markets. Nobody talks about how they correlate or influence each-other and the impacts on the little man: the poor voter who thought he would get more because Nigel said so.
It is scary that people believe there are simple solutions to our problems.
Could it be that the EU helped our governments hide their shortcomings and delay valuable reforms on NHS, education, etc? (Things not regulated by the EU!)
I hope when reality hits it will be too late cause then and only then our kids will know what matters and at least they will do their homework and will not blindly vote for slogans on buses like their parents. Hope they will get more involved, active on shaping decisions and be open to debates with arguments and not just “we will figure it out somehow later”.
Weaviemx5 - I am waiting for sonic67 to lecture you now on how the BBC is not a reliable source. Just wait...
"Want more?" Was a serious question. There's lots of examples I could give.
Why My American Students Used to Gasp in Horror When they Learnt About the EU
Controlling migration, regulations and taxation are all powers lots of countries take for granted.
Depends on your view. Member states can set VAT within a certain upper and lower level.
For instance, the UK government can reduce VAT from 20p to 15p. What the UK government couldn't do was remove VAT from things the EU had decided on. Tampons came up a lot as VAT is supposed to be for "luxury" items. I doubt many women have thought, "I'll treat myself tonight" and bought some tampax on the way home.
Saw this yesterday.
UK boat industry buoyed by weak pound
Exactly. As I said above.
You can't remove VAT without EU approval. There is scope to lower it to a certain degree. Not to remove it, or raise and lower beyond those parameters.
And a sovereign country can remove the lot. And right now.
Why is there tax on an essential item at all?
If your kid had gone up in flames as they were dressed as a witch on bonfire night and now had horrible burns and scarring for life, a sovereign country could ban fancy dress classed as toys and order all goods sold as such must meet the same standards as all children's clothing. It could be done before another item was sold and another kid burned.
Instead it takes years of getting an agreement from all EU countries and any one can impose their own changes or veto it.
Again as with French farmers holding their government to ransom and why farming subsidies can't be related to green issues.
Farm subsidies 'must be earned' - Gove
The issue was highlighted last year when BBC News revealed that taxpayers are paying more than £400,000 a year to subsidise a farm where a billionaire Saudi prince breeds racehorses.
Environmentalists will applaud the promise of change; they blame the CAP for the huge loss of wildlife in the British countryside.
I'm hoping the use of two clearly opposite example viewpoints of the same topic will negate that and lead to genuine conversation. data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7As you say, there's obviously no simple answer for any of the major questions around Brexit and I guess the alternative views show how we are all different people with different thoughts and feelings.As a result, one persons' reckless risk is another persons' impassioned leap of faith.
Sonic- on your farm subsidies point: are you aware that at least two uk regions who voted 60% leave were solely subsidised by EU development funds and now they are crying for their funding? This to my point of people not even knowing what planet they are on...
How immigration changed a Lincolnshire town
There is also a problem with local housing. Because some workers come temporarily, they do not mind housing themselves poorly for a spell.
So 10 single workers may each pay £60 a week to share what was a three-bedroom house, netting the landlords £600 a week. That means a gross rental income from the house of perhaps £30,000 a year.
That is much more than local families can afford for those houses - and the housing supply has simply not kept up with demand.
We will now have a government directly answerable to us.
It won't be able to use the EU as a scapegoat. Another reason to leave.
I believe the EU has taken something like £200 billion from us. Could it be the NHS and education could have benefited from that?
I'm waiting for you to actually read my posts. I use the BBC as a source so you can't accuse me of bias.
Did the UK lose its sovereignty in 1972?
OK - but did we lose parliamentary sovereignty in 1972?
Yes, some of it. The big dog agreed to give up some kennel space.
Just to clarify, those points you've highlighted aren't mine, they're taken from the articles I linked to.
I understand your frustration but leaving the EU tomorrow won't suddenly make Theresa May announce that VAT has been scrapped.In you mind, why does our Government levy an additional 5% on top of the 15% figure forced upon us by the EU?If they only need to charge 15% VAT, why don't they?
You're clearly of the belief that being a sovereign country will make it much cheaper overnight but I'm (personally of course) not convinced that will happen.Of course, it's favourable for a Government to be able to blame the big bad wolf for them having to charge 15% VAT, well 20% when they add on their own 5% top up, but do you really believe that this will change at all after we've left?
As for the childrens' fancy dress outfits.Of course I don't want to see my children go up in flames but is it really the EU forcing that upon us or is it another focused article making that suggestion?I haven't thoroughly researched it but this article from October 2016 states that the UK Government promised a "fire prevention strategy" in September 2015 but at the time of the article hadn't made any changes?
Children's fancy dress costumes still a danger, say British fire chiefs
Is it really the EU forcing unsafe clothing onto our children or is there a certain amount of responsibility to be born by our own Government?
Klaxhu are you aware you can't please everyone?
If only someone had put something like that on a bus.It would have been a massive vote winner //static.avforums.com/styles/avf/smilies/clap.gif