So, as there's now (in theory) going to be a delay........

weaviemx5

Yes the deal has flaws. It's a compromise following intense negotiations.

You know, that thing that apparently Boris wasn't really doing and it was all a sham. And the EU would definitely not reopen the withdrawal agreement anyway.

As I said on the day the deal was announced, there's no way the remain side could acknowledge what was achieved. Instead they'd do anything to detract from the deal.

Thanks for proving me right.

Panavision

It’s pointless arguing. To some it doesn’t matter what Boris nor anyone else says. They’d never admit they have it wrong. Nor give credit for something that is undeniably good.

The deadlock was broken. The unnegotiable negotiation was reopened. The majority of the MPs actually voted in favour. Yet it’s still being denied by some.

Total waste of time. May as well argue that is black is really white.

Rasczak

You must have both missed my post a few days ago where I said this current deal is probably the best we’re going to get. The deal itself isn’t the issue in my eyes, it’s the pedestal that you seem to be putting Johnson on as if he’s just come up with some glorious move forwards when, in reality, he’s taken the large majority of May’s deal (which he even voted against himself twice) and gone back to the original EU proposal, that May rejected, and implemented a border in the Irish Sea to separate NI from mainland Britain.

In your celebration of him removing the EU veto, in the event of the backstop actually coming into effect, by making it the front stop, you are willing to ignore him going back on his previous statement regarding cutting off NI.  Yes, compromise is required in all negotiations, but at least acknowledge that without fawning over Johnson at any opportunity as it comes across as a little disingenuous.

Bl4ckGryph0n

This is what Boris did with the backstop:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Keeping up with the latest Brexit News                                                                                                        If Johnson decides to do that, he's gonna end up extending Brexit till January.  Then just perhaps he is opening the door to Farage in a GE. People keep talking about how he'll walk to a majority. Are they so sure when you bring January and TBP into play?  (I don't think TBP would ever win a...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.avforums.com                                                                               
Basically, he got the EU back to their preferred position of putting a border down the Irish Sea. That was in their first draft of the agreement.

Rasczak

Can you point to where in the first draft of the agreement it included Northern Ireland having to consent to remain in the arrangement?

Bl4ckGryph0n

There is an interesting article here that shows the differences between Theresa May's deal and Johnson's 'new' deal.  As the link shows, less than 5% is actually new.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                How much of Johnson's 'great new deal' is actually new?                                                                                                        Guardian analysis shows less than 5% of the original deal has been renegotiated. What has been removed from May’s deal and what has replaced it?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.theguardian.com

Rasczak

I couldn't care less if only one word was changed in the sentence such that the EU can't veto the UK staying the EU. The facts are that that has been removed, and despite the EU saying it wasn't open for renegotiation, it ended up being open for renegotiation.

To come back with pure whataboutery to then point out the quantity of the changes is in my opinion just plain weird. I'd have thought that universally that the quantity of changes is not really a measure of how good nor how welcome the change is.

Heck if anything, the low quantity of changes demonstrates the focus on the right things and not be bothered with stuff that doesn't make a material difference anyway.

Bl4ckGryph0n

The EU said they would only accept something equivalent to the backstop, namely something that would give them certainty that Northern Ireland will never leave alignment with EU rules.  They have accepted the simple majority consent arrangements because it does exactly what the backstop did - it provides the certainty Northern Ireland will remain locked in EU rules as, given the deep and enduring partisan divisions, the pro-Brexit factions in Northern Ireland will never have a majority.

Rasczak

Unless Stormont chooses to leave such an arrangement, without a veto to stop that from happening by the EU.

Aj33

The EU don't need a veto - the politics of Northern Ireland provide that without any external intervention.  In many ways, the 'Northern Ireland consent' mechanism gives the EU much more certainty than the backstop.  It is quite remarkable that a Conservative Prime Minister would sign up to such a severe and enduring blow to the Union.