The Record The Crystalume Caper

JCAllison

Hey Mr. T,
Have just spent some amount of time in contemplation of what is important, per your very adroit advice.

The Crystalume is an Instrument, the image of which is view by looking at the Screen on which the image is projected. That Screen is a Rear Projection Screen (RPS). When "playing" The Crystalume, I see the BACK SIDE of what the Audience is seeing out front.

The largest image presently possible is projected on a 7'-0" X 10'-0" RPS which is used in small auditoriums, and amphitheaters. For Larger Venues, TV Projection is employed. For TV Projection, the 33.5" X 44" RPS is used as the TV Projection System provides the enlarged image.

For recording, the 33.5" X 44" RPS is used.

Using the "If Silence is Black" analogy, let's say that The Crystalume is the visual analog of an acoustic Guitar. When hearing an acoustic Guitar, the sound is actually coming from the Instrument. When seeing The Crystalume, the image is actually coming from the Instrument.

Then Les Paul invented the Electric Guitar. The sound that is heard isn't from the Electric Guitar, it is from the Speakers. What I'm thinking of is putting a "pickup" on The Crystalume and making it an Electric Crystalume.

So what is the visual equivalent of an Electric Guitar Pickup? Some would say a TV Camera, but a TV Camera is more the visual equivalent of a Microphone. A visual pickup would be???

Am thinking along the lines of a high-quality, color CCTV Camera. Don't need zoom, or variable focus. No need for a variable Iris. No need to have any kind of recording function. Just need a "video pickup" that would put out a digital video signal to a Computer's HDD.

What term should be used to do a search for such an item?

Anyway, hope YOU are well.

JC

12harry

Glad to read you're still with us ...although miles away and in isolation. It's difficult to understand how yr health issues must affect activity throughout the day.

I guess here (I) don't think too much about "Local distances" with several Movie-making clubs ( alas, some down to small numbers of members ), within 20minutes' drive - and an engineering club about 30minutes ( I once cycled there, when the car was out of action - grief - it was up-hill both ways!).

Of course for yr. project you can always have a second take. The issue with a live-mic is that it will pick up some of the ambient music - so the mix is already "not clean" - making it difficult to put it into another take. BUT  you will have time to sort this out, as you report several blows with Technology, where you've won through.    Excellent.

Good luck in yr venture.

JCAllison

Hey Mr. 12H,
My preferred term is "Splendid Seclusion".

Have a set routine that HAS to be done each day that takes about an hour in the morning, and another hour in a few periods the rest of the day, but mostly am free to spend the time doing that which I want to do. Am on the retired person's calendar.

Sunday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday.
Sunday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday.

Onalaska is 13 miles from the nearest town (Livingston, Texas) to the East, and 33 miles to the nearest BIG town (Huntsville, Texas) to the West. In between are typical "Wild West" towns like "Cut and Shoot", and "Point Blank" (no, honest!).

LOL!

Actually, there doesn't have to be ambient music. What I'd be hearing could be through Head Phones.

Thanks. Am in the process of rethinking the whole project. Am afraid that what is next needed is a more modern Video Pickup Facility (see my previous post).

This Panasonic Camcorder is just not working out. It's more than that which is needed.

Would YOU happen to have any salient suggestions?

Anyway, thanks for the response. Hope you're having a GREAT day.

JC

MarkE19

I would be surprised if DMA was applicable to a Windows 7 PC.

The chances are (and yes I am guessing here) is that the hard drives in the PC are newer SATA (small thin connection & power cables) drives rather than the old PATA/IDE (wide ribbon connection cable & molex power cable). DMA enabling is something that you needed to do on the old IDE drives only - see images on this page under
Differences in Cables and  Connectors here IDE vs SATA - Difference and Comparison | Diffen
But if you do have IDE drives then do the following to enable DMA
Open the Start menuRight-click on “Computer” and click on “Manage”Click on “Device Manager”Uncollapse IDE ATA/ATAPI controllersRight-click on any label where “Channel” is part of the name – Click on PropertiesGo to the Advanced Settings tab, under Device Properties check “Enable DMA”Also make sure that any optical drives are on a different IDE cable to the hard drives otherwise the HDD will be slowed down to the speed of the optical drive.

Mark.

MarkE19

How do you connect to the RPTV?
If using a video connection then you could connect it to a PVR and record it directly instead of recording the projected image with a camcorder. Depending on the connection used would depend on the type of recorder you use.

Mark.

JCAllison

Hey Mr. ME19,
Your guess was correct. Just took the side off of The Scryer (the computer in the TV system) and it has small, thin connection &power cables.
[/quote]Also make sure that any optical drives are on a different IDE cable to the hard drives otherwise the HDD will be slowed down to the speed of the optical drive. Mark.[/QUOTE]

The Scryer (and I am guessing here) has no optical drives. It has but one HDD.

Thanks for the response. Am going to continue with a response to YOUR next post.

JC

JCAllison

Hey Mr. ME19,
There is no Rear Projection Television. The Rear Projection is done in The Crystalume using an ancient Slide Projector called a "Spindler Sauppe 1200 SelectroSlide, w/ UltraBright". Here is a JPG of that unit:
                                                                                 
This is one of two SS1200s  that was acquired in the mid 1960s (the other one was destroyed in a 1981 fire). Back in the mid '60s, this kind of projector had as its expressed purpose the projecting of images on a Rear Projection Screens behind the talking head in a TV Studio BEFORE the Blue, and later the Green Screen technology was invented.

The reason that this particular unit was obtained was because it was expressly made to produce the proper image to be seen by a TV Camera aimed at a Rear Projection Screen, though the way that it is used in The Crystalume was NOT envisioned by Spindler Sauppe when they designed the SS1200.

I had an occasion to demonstrate The Crystalume for Norm Sauppe at the Spindler Sauppe production facility in North Hollywood back in the 1970s. He made an interestting comment: "It's like we designed a Sportscar, and YOU are making it fly!"

Once again, I have not conveyed a clear explanation about The Crystalume system. There is no RPTV involved. There IS the SS1200 that produces a light beam that goes through The Crystalume's Optical System, ultimately producing an image on a Rear Projection Screen.

But I understand that to which you are referring about recording the projected image directly from a Video Projector, IF we were using a RPTV (which we are not).

Have been doing some thinking on a "Plan B". Some of that thinking can be read in Post 23 of this Thread.

Have already done some searching for: "High Quality Color CCTV Cameras" which, I'm surmising, would work as "video pickups" for The Crystalume.

Have even found a goodly number of Color CCTV Cameras for prices that are within my budget range.

QUESTION: If I posted the URLs for the Color CCTV Cameras that have been found, would it be possible for those here on AVF, to evaluate them for suitability regarding what is being attempted? The reason that I'm asking for this is because I am not able to evaluate from the Specifications supplied with the various units because of lack of knowledge regarding what the Specifications mean.

Here is specifically what is being attempted: Want a "Video Pickup" (meaning a device that would electronically "see" The Crystalume Image), that would be mounted, at whatever distance would be necessary, in front of The Crystalume's Rear Projection Screen, and fixedly focused on the Rear Projection Screen's surface. All it has to do is "see" The Crystalume image, and then send it to The Scryer's HDD.

This Video Pickup doesn't need to have other capabilities such as zoom, pan, or any other function other than to maintain a pre-fixed focus on The Crystalume's Rear Projection Screen's Surface. It doesn't have to do anything other than capture The Crystalume image, and send it to The Scryer's HDD via whatever methodology would be required.

I know that this is unusual, but it's what is needed.

I very much appreciate everyone who has taken the time to involve themselves in this endeavor. As far as I know, there isn't anything else LIKE this being attempted, so we're in a kind of "virgin" territory.

I'm going to go re-find the Color CCTV Cameras that have already been found, and will have the URLs ready to post if the answer to the question above is "Yes".

Anyway, thanks for the response. Hopefully we can make some meaningful progress on Plan B.

JC

MarkE19

Yes you can of course put the url's in here - or just make & model of them so we can have a look at the specs and see what advice we can offer.

There are some good tips on capturing a projected image here:
“Off-the-Wall” Secrets: Tips for Transferring Film, Slides and Photos to Videotape | Videomaker
And here: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/how-do-i-video-a-super-8-movie--83103/
A lot of the talk is about projected film so flickering is an issue due to different frame rates, but as this is not the case for you this should not be an issue. So it 'should' be easier to get the images onto the PC cleanly.

Google really is your friend for things like this - I'm good but still rely heavily on my searching abilities to find details on many things I get asked both on here and at work (I'm an IT analyst looking after 2 schools IT equipment).

Mark.

12harry

Thanks for yr insight...
Re Camcorder: - a modern one will improve quality ( whatever the source) and allow you to use modern software for the Edits - in the way others do here.
You may find that a modest zoom is all that's needed, as long-zooms tend to mean the chip-size is quite small. However, whilst DSLR's have their advocates ( and larger chips like APSC which claim lower noise*), their sound-specs may be below camcorders... and in general they are more difficult to use.  However, for filming a projected image it is possible they could be more useful as their Manual-mode is part of their strength.  That said almost any camcorder over (say) USD500 is likely to be a very useful tool whether it's in Auto or Manual. The snag with DSLR's IMHO is that for a lot of money you get limited Zooming and handling capability. This is quite an issue when filming "Holiday/Travel" situations.... where there is family time-pressure to "keep-up".

Cheers.

FWIW when I bought my 55x Sony CX410 I was concerned it would be rubbish at night - I compared a street-scene with orange (sodium then) street lighting near a public house ( ~beer joint ), and could not tell any difference when edited and projected. It's possible the light-level was greater than I believed... although it was not bright..... however, I find that camcorder is lacking in club "Student Sessions" due to the lower lighting others can use. When they bring in the LED lights for a "Studio Session" then the light is much brighter and the CX410 appears to be perfectly OK and I benefit from the BOSS stabaliser, even hand-held.
The other reason I bought this model was the wired Remote which allows Zoom and Still photos without jogging the camcorder . . . but in their wisdom Sony made the lead too short, so you are tied to the tripod zone....
  The newer Sonys are 4K but have limited zooms ( a killer IMHO ); as well as some confusion in my mind whether the BOSS works in 4K-mode . . . so I'm looking at the newer Panasonics.

JCAllison

Hey Mr. ME19,
Have picked four URLs, put them into an Open Office Document, just copied them, and am going to try to paste them here. Hopefully they will maintain their hypertext clickability.

Samsung SCB-5003 Analog Box Camera, 1/3  1.3MP CMOS, 1000TVL

InVid ULT-C2RICS 1080p TVI Box Camera, WDR, Dual Voltage

InVid PAR-P4RICS 4 Megapixel IP Plug & Play Box Camera

Panasonic WV-CP310 Fixed Day/Night Color Box Camera, NTSC

Hopefully these will be clickable.

What is here being sought is information about:

The recordability of the images on The Scryer's HDD, and the quality (resolution?) of the images, which information will hopefully be gleaned from the specifications accompanying each unit.

If perchance none of these are suitable, please feel free to suggest units that WOULD be suitable.

“Off-the-Wall” Secrets: Tips for Transferring Film, Slides and Photos to Videotape | Videomaker

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/how-do-i-video-a-super-8-movie--83103/

Have not yet looked at these references, but will be doing so when finished here.

Encouraging.

You're so right. It is used a LOT.

As an ITA, YOU no doubt have the qualifications to analyze the specifications (something that I wish I had the knowledge to do). Have to say that I'm enjoying the quite steep learning curve. Am committed to doing this.

When I first tried to mess with Desk Top Television, a bunch of money was spent getting stuff like The Panasonic Camcorder, a Matrox RT2500, a Matrox G450 Dual Head AGP Card, etc. At the time was relying on a WebSite called "Video Guys".

Turned out, the endeavor was so early that nothing worked reliably, and then because of health issues, I had to back off of the DTV project.

Now that I'm back to trying to do the DTV thing again, am finding that all the equipment that was gotten back then is useless, and not only that, what I can remember of what was learned at the time is no longer relevant!

Have gotten elderly, and thing have and are changing so fast that it isn't easy to keep up. But if I don't do it, it won't get done, and if I don't do it, there will come a time when I won't be ABLE to do it. So here we are. It's onward through the fog.

Thanks for the response. I very much appreciate being tolerated so graciously.

Take care.

JC

PS: My Avatar is presently a Still Image produced by The Crystalume, but am going to change it to a picture of myself so you all can see to whom you are responding.[/quote]