What is max lag deemed acceptable for gaming?

SteveU30

As per my other thread here: http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-led-lcd-tvs/1501761-why-do-latest-screens-have-such-high-gaming-lag.html#post15229003 I'm in the market for a new TV soon but I'm appalled at the response times of the current generation of TVs. My 3 year old Sony has virtually no lag (somewhere between 0-10ms) whereas the latest stuff averages between 30-60ms which is just shocking in comparison.

My question is what kind of lag is deemed acceptable for games such as CoD etc where every ms counts? I'm not a serious player but I don't want to hamper my game going from a TV with no lag to one with ridiculous amounts.

Am I worrying too much or will I notice the difference going to a TV with 30ms lag as I want a TV with a few bells and whistles?

virtual_boy

Latency is caused by the TV processing the incoming signal and scaling it to native resolution of the TV, the time this takes is also hampered by any picture processing gimicks the TV may have.
All these 'features' should really be turned off even for TV/film viewing but many new TVs also have a setting called Game mode (or similar), this setting can further reduce processing and therfore lag but generally has a detrimental effect on picture quality.
There are a few ways you can further help reduce lag such as matching the Xbox's output resolution to the TV's native resolution (all though 1080p may effect the image on some games) or using a VGA connection rather than component or HDMI.
To put the TV's lag into perspective take into account input lag from a controller, the lowest input lag a game can have is 50ms which is very rarely reached with most 60fps games having a 66/67ms latency and 30fps games having a minimum potential lag of 100ms which many exceed.
So even if your TV produces lag to the tune of 40ms it's still a third less than even the controller produces, obviously you need to combine the two giving a result of about 106ms in a 60fps game but iirc a frame is around 17ms so a latency of 106ms is 6 frames which is a tenth of a second.
It is suggested that on average latency will become noticeable at around 166ms (9.7 frames), so theoretically you could get away with a TV producing upto 100ms lag at 60fps before lag became apparent.

SteveU30

Wow, what a very thorough answer, thank you!!

So basically what you're saying is that I needn't be too worried and just get a TV with a Game mode that cuts the lag down to circa 30-40ms?

virtual_boy

Personally i'd say get whatever TV takes your fancy mate as the lag you will get when playing online is far greater than any noticeable input or scaling lag, I'm 99% certain you'd try game mode for a whole 5 minutes before turning it off as it also increases the brightness/contrast and sharpness (should be 0 for a HD source) to almost unviewable levels and even with game mode off once you have turned off all the processing I think most TV's will end up with a latency somewhere around that figure even via a HDMI connection.

Dinky Dragon

Most normal people wont notice anything under 50ms...

Its humanly impossible in most instances, people lag alot more than computers do.

So based on that, Id say anything under 50ms is fine.

Unfortunately TVs are getting worse for input lag. Whilst game mode helps reduce this it also forces 'inaccurate' color and is very inflexible when it comes to finer adjustments such as 10p White Balance.

Your best bet is to get your set calibrated first, if you still notice input lag then its time for game mode.

My Samsung is around 80ms now calibrated but lowers to around 30ms with Game mode at the expense of 10p White Balance and xvYCC Still, works well and looks feeecking brilliant.

Drop by once youve chosen some sets and we can help guide ya Although Ill always advise in a Samsung or Panasonic. And seeing as you will be gaming Id go for and LCD OR a FULL LED set, not LED side/backlighting

SteveU30

Cheers for the info, I was looking at last years Sammy LE46C750 as my FIL has the 40" version and the picture is astonishing (plus it's CCFL), I was just a bit concerned with the gaming lag in reviews. Other options were this years Sammy D6530 and the Panny ST30 and GT30 but the latter is pushing my budget and I'm not sure a Plasma will be OK during the day in my bright living room.

Any ideas?

VivaFathom

I wouldn't like to play on anything higher than 50ms, the reason why i don't play on my big TV. I definatly felt the lag online, single player it doesn't even matter.

Monitors are the best for gaming though.

virtual_boy

xvYCC is not supported by the xbox 360 though
I had a Samsung before my current Samsung LE46A656 and will deffinately be buying Samsung again when I upgrade

Dinky Dragon

I upgraded to the 46" C650 from my 37" A656 - its night and day. I could use xvYCC with my 360 and A656 :S Not sure what youre doing wrong, it really does help with bringing the color out too.

I never used Game mode on my ol A656, it was TERRIBLE. I had it calibrated though so it ran about 50-60ms which was fine for me.

As for the C750, thats the 3D version of the set I have, there are calibrated settings out there too for you to tinker with, it also has slightly better input lag times by a few seconds and my C650 is brilliant.

However, Id advise the C650 over the C750, for the same reason I opted out of the C750, 3D performance stinks atm, better to have a crazy awesome 2D TV than an ok 3D TV with great 2D.

Unless you plan on watching blu ray/HD Movies ALOT then dont get a Plasma.

virtual_boy

xvYCC gives a wider colour gamut but is only effective when all components support it (source, source material & display), neither the Xbox or its games support xvYCC so TV is synthetically changing the picture and although you are getting a wider range of colour you are not receiving a better range of colour as it's not present at the source.
I think this similar to the standard, intermediate and expanded reference levels available on the xbox, these modes are only for use with a VGA connection and have a similar result on the picture.
TV's are setup for black level of 7.5 IRE and PC display has its black set to 0 IRE (as does a TV's VGA connection) and the Xbox 360 is set at 7.5 IRE unless expanded levels are selected giving a 0 IRE, enabling the expanded mode increases the range from 16-235 (7.5 IRE) to 0-255 (0 IRE) but if your xbox is connected by anything other than VGA then it is expecting a range of 16-235 which not only means you are adding an extra conversion stage (which can add banding and other artefacts) but anything below 16 and above 235 will be hard cliped (crushed) and everything in between can appear washed out.
The below black and above white data is also used by the TV to reduce interpolation errors, so the lack of that could also degrade the picture.

Apologies for the off topic post.