Combi boilers.

Derek S-H

Thank you so much for your highly detailed and informative reply - you should create a Sticky about this as I'm sure lots of people (like me) have absolutely no idea when it comes to boilers and being fully informed.

Cheers!

JimmyMac

Excellent and useful post, our boiler is original to the house, being now 19 years old and its still going strong. Over the last couple of years its started kettling but I am not planning on changing it until it truly is on its last legs.

I simple cannot see how a new boiler would save us money as our energy bills for the house are already pretty damn good I would say. Combined Elec and Gas is £92 per month for a 4 bed detached house, think it would take something incredible to drop that enough to make any kind of decent saving

Cocksure

The trouble with the new boilers is that they only save you money if you run them correctly (not to hot) most people run them exactly the same as there old boilers (hot) so the extra efficiency is debatable.

However when people get new boilers they also get new controllers and that's where the main savings come from.

People don't realise that they could upgrade their present controllers without upgrading there boiler and still get much of the savings that way

Cocksure

Neither can I, or rather it could but the amount saved is not worth speaking of (maybe 5 to 10 a month), certainly not enough to justify the expense of a new one.

If it was me I would do exactly the same as you are, run it to it can run no more or wait to the government offers you a free upgrade!

Ruperts slippers

Part L legislation deals with the conservation of fuel and power, it has nothing to do with saving the customer money, its to do with the wider issues of pollution and energy usage. Modern boilers do both, gas engineers are encouraged to help in this process by recommending energy efficient products, such as condensing boilers, TRV's, heating and hot water controls, solar, ground source etc, etc.

There is a bigger picture to consider, I often feel this is lost on both the householder and gas engineers in equal measure.

Derek S-H

This has crossed my mind and is a motivating factor, but I have taken other energy saving measures in my flat to try and mitigate against having an energy-inefficient boiler.

I also don't have it on a timer but just use it as and when I need it.

Cocksure

Couldn't agree more.

As to whether they do reduce pollution, i would question, even to an extent energy usage reduction if a straight swap was done with no altering of controls, fitting of trv's etc, so as it was a truly like for like comparison made in a real-world usage instead of a lab.

You and i both know that the main concern at the moment is Nox levels, and that modern boilers kick it out like its going out of fashion. Now how this compares to the old boilers i couldn't say, but i suspect it is very much like diesel cars, lower C02 but higher Nox with modern boilers, due to the fact that no one cared about Nox levels when condensing boilers were drawn up.

Add in production costs, transport, etc carbon footprint and again i wonder. Government policy is about meeting targets on paper, not real world reductions. More importantly, just because the government says there better doesn't mean that they are, which I suspect the government knows, all the talk about modern boilers is about reducing co2 levels and that's it, which brings me back to diesel cars again

However all of the above is just IMO

Edit
And let's not forget that most people go for a larger boiler when they replace their Combi (the 30kw becomes a 32kw, the 36kw becomes a 42kw, etc) which wipes out any gas reduction usage made by the change.

But like I said it's all just imo

Further edit
Oops almost forgot that when it comes to non condensing boilers that the hot water can be heated directly in the main heat exchanger rather than needing a 2nd heat plate exchanger as modern boilers do so missing out a step and being a far more efficient method. The 90% efficiency is in relation to the central heating not hot water. Things are improving, but they have a long way to go yet.

They are now listing hot water efficiency on modern boilers, but that A rating in gives doesn't mean it heats it at 90% but rather around 70%

So all in are they really better for the environment?

Ruperts slippers

The problem for installers is the cost factor, selling these changes to the customers can be difficult as each party has differing motivations and circumstances. However I still maintain that the skill is convincing the customer these improvements and added costs will a benefit to themselves, it also depends on the customer base too. Leading up-to the post recession I targeted wealthier people as these seem more open to listening to the benefits (spending more money) of the new systems, rather than those just wanting a cheap job.
Personally my gas ticket ran out 12 months and I wont be renewing and if everything goes to plan I'll be out of the p/h industry all together in the next 3/4 yrs.

Cocksure

@neilios again I agree, customer aren't prepared to spend the money or more importantly alter their behaviour.

As you know I'm a huge fan of unvented cylinders, but I don't think I have convinced a single person on here to the benefits of them over combi's, wheather compensaters can make a huge difference, never sold one yet and even if I did they are getting harder to find.

Straight swap for swap I strongly question as being better for the environment, go the whole hog though...

Ruperts slippers

Some customers, depends on the house size, larger properties have underfloor, rad, unvented, solar, nest, hive etc, etc. Plenty of large houses in this area.
Last yr I completed a job combining a 2000ltr cylinder with solar, wind turbine along with a wood burner. Very complex, The cylinder was specially made by a company from Notts, along with the schematic drawings, the farmer spent some serious coin. Very impressive project and worked like a dream, despite reservations and panic at times.