Combi boilers.

Derek S-H

Apologies if this has already been posted before.

I live in a well insulated two bed flat with no bath, just a shower. The boiler (a Worcester 24 CDi) was already installed when I moved in in 2005 and as the previous owner had done some refurbishment work, I assumed that the boiler was part of that process.

Just had the boiler annually serviced and all's good. I spoke to the gas engineer about it and mentioned its age, and he gave me a funny look and suggested that it was actually closer to 20-25 years' old!

He said that it should be fine to get me through this Winter, but that I should be looking to replace it sooner rather than later with something more energy efficient like a condensing boiler, probably Spring 2018.

I was just going to go with a like-for-like replacement with a contemporary Worcester, but he mentioned that he has a Viessmann boiler in his home and he really rates them. They're mainly known for their commercial applications, but have recently moved into the domestic market.

My query is whether anyone here has one and how have they found it? I don't want to skimp on a boiler as I regard it as essential, and have already decided to just pick between the two makes.

Thanks!

Rodders53

Does it need replacing? What faults/problems does it have?

Some 24CDi models are still current according to Worcester - Boiler Efficiency Rating and the two I checked started manufacture in 1997, so 20 years old is the max?

It will take quite a time to recoup outlay of new boiler (£ks) via improved energy efficiency.  

Some Gas Technicians get incentives to charm home owners into new boilers from their bosses.  Manufacturers often incentives smaller firms to fit their brand over others.

Get alternative opinions and quotes (at least three) from local firms!

Derek S-H

Nice link!

Very useful information there, though I still don't know EXACTLY which Worcester model I have now thanks to all those abbreviations. At least I know that it can't be more than 20 years' old.

No, there's no problem with the boiler at the moment, it's all working fine. But it probably will have to be replaced at some point as Worcester will stop issuing replacement parts, so if it does break down and can't be fixed (usually in the depths of Winter), then I will have to arrange a complete boiler replacement whilst having no heating or hot water.

The gas engineer was great, a guy from a local firm. He said I DON'T have to replace it if I don't want to, that I could just wait for it to fail, but that it would be prudent to do so just in case. He suggested waiting until next Spring and do online research in the meantime, hence the query.

I'm not too bothered about recouping the financial cost through energy savings (though it's always nice to pay less for your energy), but I would like to do anything to reduce my CO2 emissions and the money is there, I'm just undecided about which manufacturer to go for.

Thanks for your reply!

DOBLY

I have no experience of a Viessmann boiler, but having had a quick look at their website I have to say they look great, and have bookmarked it for future reference.

Rodders53

Somewhere on the boiler will be its rating plate and serial numbers...  That should give precise model number and enough info for Worcester's Customer Service people to give a more accurate age.  Also if / when they expect to stop supporting it with spares (not forgetting popular boilers sometimes get 'pattern parts' made by others).

Personally, I'd be in no mad rush to replace a working boiler that has not been breaking down up to date.  Older are often simpler, easier to repair and have less things to go wrong.

OK in the event of a catastrophic breakdown, electric heaters might cost short term, and having to go elsewhere for a decent bath or shower (after a period of strip washing via a kettle of hot water) would be inconvenient.  But a decent plumber who's had your regular custom for servicing ought give you some priority in such circumstances, you'd hope?

Check out other forums as well for views on different boiler brands. e.g. diynot. There's also a very long  thread on here where you might like to ask / point people over to this thread?  If anyone wants advice on gas/central heating/boilers. feel free to ask

Cocksure

If you have the manual for the boiler or look underneath or on the front of the boiler you will see a sticker with the gc no. (gas council number) with that number a quick Google would give you the boiler age. (years of production).

Viessmann boilers are very highly rated in the trade as there either German or Dutch company and are produced to a far higher standard than wb, vaillant, etc, but then you pay more for them.

Personally though given your heating/hot water requirements I wouldn't even think of changing your boiler as you will never get your money back.

Parts wise availability isn't based on how old the boiler is, but is based on how many boilers of that type are out there (and the 24cdi sold in the 100s of thousands if not millions) so parts will be available for a long time yet. I recently needed to get parts for a vaillant 282e that stopped being made in 1997, the merchant kept the parts as stock items, (not order in, but on the shelf), so don't worry about parts for a long time yet

Derek S-H

Quick update: thanks to Rodders' link above I've established which boiler is mine (24 CDi RSF-L), that it's been available since 2001 (so it's no more than 16 years' old) and after contacting Customer Service that parts are still available for it if it were to require a repair.

The guy I spoke to seemed sweet but clueless as to how much longer they were going to be providing parts, but Cocksure's reply above seems to suggest that I don't need to panic about this.

So I'll just keep it, get it serviced every year and only change it when it dies or I move, whichever comes first!

Thanks for everyone's advice with this, much appreciated.

Cocksure

My dad's oil burner recently need a new part, and that boiler was fitted in 1966. Took a week to track the parts down (due to the manufacturer no longer existing), but we found them.

Its the biggest load of BS going that after x number of years you cant get the parts, but it is an excellent reason to get customers to replace a boiler. Time and time again i have come across customers who say that they have been told that parts aren't available when one quick call to the manufacturer shows they are.

Boiler manufacturers make more money selling parts than they do from selling a new boiler, so why oh why would they cut off that income after x number of years! As long as there is a market then they will keep on producing parts regardless of the products age.

Derek S-H

Cocksure - you seem very knowledgeable about this subject, can I just ask you: what is the approximate working lifespan of the average combi boiler, regardless of age?

Assuming that someone has it serviced every year and basically looks after it and doesn't run it at maximum capacity all the time, could they theoretically go on for decades? Or do they all reach a point whereby it's no longer economically viable to repair and it's cheaper to replace completely?

I remember a plumber acquaintance once saying to me that, "they go and go and go, and then they stop". Which suggests they don't really wear out as such, they just stop working completely and then you replace them?

Thanks!

Cocksure

The old non condensing boilers (pre 2006) really do just run and run, 30 plus years is not uncommon. I'm not saying that you won't have to replace parts along the way, but the parts are cheap (in the main) and easy to get hold of. What kills them is eventually you can't get the parts (usually you can, lots of bs in this area) but some things you can't (new heat exchanger say if your really unlucky)

Modern (post 2006) condensing boiler though have a 7 to 10 year life span at average use and because there newer manufacturer can get away with charging more for parts.

Modern boilers are as well built as old boilers, but the condensation they produce slowly eats the boiler away as it is acidic (the heat exchanger can only take so much), its the price you pay for lower gas usage.

The other advantage is that the non condensing boiler didn't need to be as complex and more parts can be built with copper (the acid eats copper), they can also handle far more dirt in the system. A heat exchanger failing for whatever reason is almost unheard of in a non condensing boiler.

If people where to sit down and really do the maths then they would see that it is almost impossible to get your money back with the savings in gas with a new boiler.

The last of the non condensing boiler got up to around 80% efficiency where a new boiler is 90% so you gain a 10% saving. Say that works out at 200 a year gas reduction. Cost of a new boiler is 3k plus, so even with inflation you are looking at 20 years plus payback, and the new boiler won't last 20 years.

Your boiler needs to be seriously old 60% efficient or less for it to make financial sense. But hay who cares about such things

The reason the government push them is whilst a saving of 1% or more is nothing to you, it adds up to a huge amount across the country