Immigrants go home ...

BISHI

I don't think it is any such thing.

It seems more likely to me that people are less concerned about immigration from countries where we know that UK people could go and make a living.  And where their standard of living is comparable, and there is no perception people are coming here to live off our more generous welfare.

(I'm not saying those things happen, but it is certainly the perception)

It is great for Bulgarians and others to come here and improve their standard of living.  I'm not so sure it would be a good move for Brits to move over there and face a lower one.  So the current freedom of movement while it is an equal right both ways, it is rather lop-sided in practice and that is what I think people are concerned about.

BISHI

So, essentially what you are saying is that it's ok for rich people to move here to improve their standards of living - but it's not for the poor..?
You don't see any hypocrisy with that.?

BISHI

Did you actually understand my point at all?

Cliff

I think you may have misunderstood mine. I get the argument about rich westerners not migrating East - what interests me is the hypocrisy of already rich westerners moving further west to avoid paying tax - which is essentially the same reason for Eastern Europeans migrating to the same place - to secure more money.

BISHI

It may be hypocritical, but it doesn't mean that my explanation is incorrect and yours about cultural elitism is right.

loz

Cultural elitism wasn't 'my' explanation but one inferred on a radio programme by a commentator unable to offer any other explanation. The fact that french white collar workers will be competing for jobs that UK white collar workers could do does not seem to be an issue - but blue collar proles from Eastern Europe doing the jobs that the UK poor could do becomes a massive issue .!  I really don't get it.! If this French influx consisted of poor Franco - Algerian stock from the Parisian 'projects' would it have been ignored in the same way it has by this government ( despite the fact it has totally screwed their projected figures for immigration).?
I bet it would not.! Perhaps cultural was  the wrong word the interviewee used, perhaps what he should have said was 'class.'

BISHI

So that also assumes that those lower paid 'red' immigrants are not contributing to tax coffers- when a lot of evidence suggests that they are. That the richer immigrants might contribute more tax should offset the benefits given for lower paid workers at the lower end of the employment scale. Perhaps immigration is a much more balanced mechanism than the likes of Farage would have us believe.!

tapzilla2k

Well working tax credits is basically a subsidy to plug the gap in pay that companies are unwilling to fill as it would hit profits. Housing Benefit goes to private landlords and so on. I'm sure if you removed working tax credits from immigrants then that might have an impact on the numbers coming.

Again it's business not wanting to pay a proper wage that meets the true costs of living, as it eats into profit margins. I think Next put advertisements for it's Christmas Jobs in Poland etc before they advertised the jobs in the UK. You also have to remember that we are still an attractive country due to our standard of living and public services (which probably can't take much more strain due to a combination of Osbornes austerity measures and demand for services from the native population and the immigrants).

Even if you curtail benefits that Immigrants can currently claim, I don't think it would have a significant impact on the numbers coming (they may divert to Germany). Not until the Eurozone starts to recover lost growth and creates new jobs we will see a reduction in the numbers coming from EU Memberstates and those that are part of the Euro. I believe that's part of why there's been a dramatic increase in the numbers of people coming from EU Member states into the UK.  
The UK Economy while not in the best of shape, is doing better than the Eurozone. So a classic case of Economic push and pull factors is at work.

I don't think Cameron's got a hope in hell of getting any kind of deal with the EU, given the way he's behaved over the last few years. You need to build alliances to get anything done in Europe, he's not done that and it looks like he's annoyed Merkel ergo Germany which holds all the cards due to it bankrolling the Eurozone. It appears the speech was his last ditch appeal to save his job, rather than to actually get any meaningful reforms of the EU pushed through or for us to have a vote on the issue.

fluxo

Thanks for the reply, tapzilla.

Interesting to hear in Cameron's speech today the linking of restrictions for migrants to Universal Credit. By dovetailing policies like that, the success of one becomes contingent on the success of the other.  In other words, if UC sinks, then this restrictions plan goes down with it.

loz

Bearing in mind that over 50% of taxpayers get out more than they put in (benefits and services), then clearly low paid immigrants are also a net loss to taxpayers.

Saying that higher paid immigrants balance this is absurd. The point of controlling immigration is to focus on higher can immigrants who pay their way.