What is English Nationalism?

nabby

So, following on from a point that @Squiffy made in one of the Brexit threads about English nationalism being automatically associated with far-right racists (or words to that effect, and my apologies if I have misrepresented you there), I thought it'd be interesting to see what everyone else sees as English nationalism and how it can be sold to a wider population that's hungry for political change.

I don't have many thoughts on it, save to say that if the boil of association with right wing groups such as the EDL could be lanced then it wouldn't be a bad thing.

We should celebrate St George's Day as a national bank holiday.  We should promote English culture more (outside of the tourist version of it) and we should teach it as part of proper civics lessons in schools.

nabby

To answer @Pacifico's question in the Brexit thread in here, I have no idea if English Nationalism is struggling to gain traction.  I'm only going by what @Squiffy said about it when he brought it up (it's something he's mentioned a few times in recent days and weeks).

EarthRod

Hard to define due to ages of continual influx of immigrants or settlers all the way back to invasions by Romans, Vikings and Normans. So nationalistic tendencies tend to remain low level in general peacetime England.

Times of emergency and wars trigger the usual nationalistic fervour and politicians and media whip up flag waving and singing songs etc.

I think when the English have their backs to the wall and fighting to maintain their freedom is when true English nationalism comes to the fore.

Extreme right-wing political groups have always tried to entice people to join up using nationalism as a lever, but in general the vast majority stay clear and see it as spoiling what nationalism actually is - pulling together to help meet a threat.

nabby

The problem I see is that nationalism for the English is sneered at. The sort of reaction Emily Thornberry had (although in that case, for once it was pushed back against).

For the Scots, nationalism is seen as just being proud of your country.

Here we are seen as little Englanders, or harking back to the days of empire, or wanting to kick out foreigners.

I don't want any of that. I just want the right to be in a country that can govern itself in its own interest without fear of being larger and richer than our closest neighbours. We should embrace self interest in our government just as the Scots want to do.

I can't see that nationalism could ever be a movement in England as it is in Scotland.

justincase

I think the issue, and I'm no scholar on the subject, is one of English nationalism being overrun by ideas of English exceptionalism.  I have little experience of nationalism in Wales, but, as my wife is Scottish, I have much exposure to Scottish nationalism.  She isn't a Scottish nationalist by any stretch, but when younger she sympathised with their cause.

I'd say 99% of the Scots I've met who are pro-independence or at least pro- more devolved power don't feel like they have a superiority over the rest of the UK or any other part of the world.  Their attitude to days gone by of Empire, World Wars and ruling the waves is so different to that I see down here in England (admittedly more in the media than in day-to-day conversations).

This, and again, it's just my own view, is that as a country, England needs to confront in a serious, grown up manner, the good, the bad and the ugly sides of the Empire. I think being proud of one's country includes being able to acknowledge and if necessary, apologise for, errors made in the past, as well as celebrate in the right way the good stuff too.  Once other countries see that, I honestly believe they will see England as a grown-up modern country not afraid to confront its past or its future.

I'd also say as someone born in England but not ethnically white European, that, at least when I was younger, in the 70s, 80s and 90s, the idea of other English people thinking of me as English would have been a total exception to the rule.  Not because of them being racist but just because their perception of what made someone English didn't include people of BAME origins. For some it would have been a case of, "You can't be English, we used to rule over you lot."  I think (and can only go on my own feelings here, plus anecdotal evidence) that this attitude still pervades in a small minority of people still.  Even though things are obviously vastly better than when I was younger.

Would I vote for an English nationalist party? Yes, if it was at least in part aligned with my wider political views.  Even if it meant leaving the EU? Yes, I don't see why not.  If we had an equivalent English version of the SNP or Plaid Cymru in terms of their inclusivity and attitude to a nationalistic agenda (excluding attitude to the EU as that's a whole separate issue that's not really for this thread, I feel), I'd be very happy to support it and campaign for it.

Iain42

Will just point out it was the British Empire...

What have i got to apologize for and to whom(not that i have any great pride about England),i wasn't even alive during the days of the Empire..I do understand your sentiment but i doubt there are many (if any) people alive who were responsible for any errors relating to the Empire...Are the Italians meant to feel apologetic about the Roman Empire.the Ottomans,the vikings,the Mongols.Where does it end...

I think this idea of English superiority is just a myth,nobody i know feels superior to anybody because they are Scottish etc, apart from accents there is no great difference..

The rise in English nationalism is likely a direct result of endless calls for Scottish independence ,I understand what the Scot's etc are not happy about but they may geographically be a long way from Westminster but they are no further away from it as the majority of England in most other regards..

Pacifico

To me English Nationalism is simply a wish to see England as an independent country, with its own elected government.

I don't mean an assembly, or an extra tier of unnecessary (IMHO) expense and government, but a sovereign parliament as an independent nation.

Just looking at previous parliamentary arithmetic, that would mean a move slightly to the right of where a UK government has been, as Scotland and Wales have traditionally been more to the left than England.

nabby

Its interesting that its only ever the English that are asked to apologize...perhaps we are too polite..

nabby

Thanks for posting a reply. I haven't asked you to apologise for anything. That would be daft, IMO. However I don't see why a country apologising makes it weaker, if that's where you're coming from.

Just exactly how far back do you think the Empire ended? It's within living memory for many all over the world and its effects and repercussions are resonating today as much as in the past.

All nationalism has at it roots an element of superiority, of a nation state being better than others. How that is channeled is important. I feel pride at the superiority of British athletes or the England football team's triumphs over others. I was calling into question English exceptionalism.

As for the roots of English nationalism coming from Scottish independence calls.  The way you've written that seems like you're possibly either fed up or envious of what some, perhaps even many, of the Scots want, by labelling it "endless calls".  No matter, I'd see it more as a result of a struggle to find a comfortable identity in a modern world where symbols of Englishness are either seen as old-fashioned or have been hijacked by others for their own ends.

justincase

Yeah, the Germans were never asked to apologise. Nor the Japanese to the Chinese and Koreans.  Nor the Catholic Church.