Markov/Litvinenko 2.0

IronGiant

Note. VX etc is a bit different. Most nerve agents of the past are water based or oil based. Water based tends to be considered non persistent. They evapaporate away like water and are a vapour hazard as they do so. Oil based nerve agents are persistent. They evaporate away at the speed oil does. Chemicals can also be thickened so it is of a consistency similar to bostick glue. Novichok is a powder. It's not the same as VX other than they all attack the nervous system. Also note with binary weapons, it tends to be said they are safe until mixed. Not really true. Chemicals are dangerous.

They are all formed from various chemicals and various chemicals have various shelf lives.

If it comes to it I was surprised to find ammunition has a shelf life. You'd think it was like a sealed can and keep it dry it will be fine. That's not the case.

I think once you get into different types within the families there is something in the region of 40 different types of nerve agent identified.

Unless you are certain what agent it is, "novichok" is the overall description of the generation, and you know what chemicals make up that type, it's difficult to be certain what we do have here. The experts will know.

krish

In other news, supermarkets are running out of Bacofoil.

Skull n Bones

Shouldn't be a problem with some here, they just take it off some off the walls and windows of a barely used room or two

Sonic67

And we're back to move along, nothing to see, be a good boy an pay your taxes

IronGiant

Corbyn will always have wriggle room. He says he wants definite proof or similar. Boris said this morning out of ten he was 9.98 certain it was Russia. Corbyn could say, "good enough for me, there's uncertainty."

It's like bleach claiming it kills 99% of all known germs and you turning round and saying, "not all then."

Also there's a certain irony here. The last time we were talking about certainty of WMDs was Blair and Iraq. Labour and Blair having a lot to answer for again.

Toko Black

Novichok is not a specific nerve agent itself, it is a name designation given to a family of nerve agents developed by the Russians.
In the West we have the G and V series designations based upon their historical development/discovery lines.

Saying something is eight times more 'deadly' is in and of itself only relative to the amount, exposure requirements, mechanism of effect and level of treatability.
In other words, some toxins and poisons are more more toxic than others in terms of the amount required to kill, but are less readily or easily absorbed by the body - some merely need to be breathed in or touch the skin, while others need to be ingested or injected into the blood stream.

An example would be comparing VX to Botulinum toxin. VX is not as toxic as Botulinum toxin, however, you can be exposed to it merely by skin contact with in the air, where as Botulinum toxins need to be ingested or injected into the body.
Ergo VX is more 'deadly' than Botulinum toxin in terms of risk of exposure yet less 'toxic'.

Since we are still not fully aware of the method of exposure to this substance in the Salisbury case, we can't be certain of the the amount of the substance and exposure time - if it was indirect exposure by aerosol for example, the victims may not have remained in the dispersment area long enough or that the wind/airflow in the particular environment meant it dispersed too rapidly to give a lethal exposure.

...... we just don't know enough information and there are so many potential factors at play to make presumptions and speculate upon ruling out something as a Novichok or not based purely on actual casualty numbers and survival rates.

Sonic67

It's not really "rumoured." We have to have CBRN kit that works. The only way to truly test it is with the actual product. It's people's lives being involved here and I wouldn't want to be near nerve agents in IPE that hadn't been adequately tested. A small amount is made and used for testing. See the other thread at 36 minutes.

Markov/Litvinenko 2.0

IronGiant

Things are far more serious than I ever imagined, Sonic just agreed with TB

I commend you both

Enki

Why not, samples go off for independent investigations at Organisation For The Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, anyway, I would assume Russia will get them one way or other.

No, however, give them more rope I say.

No, let them make the noose as well, I say.

FlagshipDevice

I’m undecided as to whether or not Russia was responsible for this attack - I’m aware of the propaganda on all sides.

What I will say is I would like us to significantly increase our defence budget. The Russians have been strengthening and modernising for some time now, while we’ve been making cuts. Sod that.