Nikon Tease

Johnmcl7

I'm still not seeing what the benefit in using a Nikon mirrorless camera with a Nikon F-mount lens is though if you've a decent Nikon F-mount body?  I just don't see the point in purchasing a Nikon mirrorless body unless you're going to get native lenses for it which will likely be smaller, lighter and offer advantages for video which is where the DSLRs are weak.

Going back a few years I had a decent 4/3 (the original DSLR standard) and then also invested in micro 4/3 with the same thinking as you've mentioned that I could use my 4/3 lenses to fill in the gaps particularly as at the time the micro 4/3 lens range was sparse (as I assume the new Nikon one will be as well).  Even putting aside the reduced functionality which shouldn't be as bad on the Nikon system, I quickly just didn't bother with the 4/3 lenses as they were mismatched on the micro 4/3 bodies as well as needing an adapter (which on its own was bigger than some of the micro 4/3 lenses) instead just kept using the 4/3 lenses on their own bodies which they were better suited to.

The situation then was different though as micro 4/3 as the only mirrorless system on the market whereas this time the Nikon system will be going against the more mature Sony FE-mount which after a bit of a rough start has a reasonable choice of lenses now.  

It's certainly a nice sweetener and all if all else is equal between Sony/Nikon but I don't think that will be the case and would rather choose the system that has the better body and native lenses.  

I'm looking forward to seeing what Nikon offer though to see what's on the table.

snerkler

I’m not sure why it’s hard to see that a lot of folk will want a gradual phase across tbh? I understand it didn’t work for you, but if Nikon do it right it could be more seamless. Plus I have no issues using TC’s so an adapter wouldn’t be any different.

Take my own situation, I would love a one system do it all scenario and in an ideal world I’d have FF for everything. So when the time comes that Nikon release a FF mirrorless that has the performance I want I could sell my Olympus gear and my DSLR and buy the Nikon mirrorless with 24-70mm f4. Therefore straight off the bat I’ve got a one system do it all, something lighter and more compact for travel and still a full lens line up. Over the years I could gradually look at swapping my 70-200mm f2.8 for a z-mount one, which going by the prices to do the same for the Sony e-mount would be around a £1k outlay. Swapping my wide angle would’ve been another £500 outlay, swapping my super tele would have been a £1500 outlay (only one Sony option) and then another few hundred here and there.

Some folk may be able to stump up £3-4K to swap over systems just like that, but I’d guess most people won’t. IMHO if Nikon don’t make a decent adapter they will not get the number of people shifting across that they want. As you rightly say, why not just stick with DSLR rather than having a ‘bodged’ system that’s clunky.  

So why would I consider a swap apart from the one system do it all scenario I mention above? Well, again for me mirrorless lends itself better for travel as I tend to use live view a lot on holiday to reach above grounds, get around awkward angles etc etc. I do like live exp preview (ie WYSIWYG), and of course I like shiny new things Don’t get me wrong I have absolutely no intention of making the switch on launch, or any time shortly after. I will let everyone else do the bug fixing and I will make sure I get my full use out of the D850, but I do think that mirrorless will eventually be the future for most folk

Johnmcl7

Because you get the worst of both worlds, you don't get the advantage of either F-mount or the new mirrorless format but you get the downsides of both.  That's why I'm still struggling to understand why you'd want to do that when the lenses will work better on their original F-mount bodies and even if Nikon implement a good adapter, the F-mount lenses are still going to be a crutch for their mirrorless system.  The advantages of mirrorless are size, weight and video but using F-mount lenses you mean you don't get any of those.

If you're going to dump the F-mount bodies entirely and switch to one system then I'd rather dump the f-mount lenses at the same time and switch fully to make it worth doing.

Admittedly I'm still not entirely sure if I want an FF mirrorless system or just all the hype about the A7 series is making me want one.  I think I'm coming from a different point of view as I'm seeing the Nikon FF mirrorless as something to compliment my F-mount setup as I can't see the mirrorless really rivaling it and I'm not fussed about using video with those big lenses.  Instead I'm looking for something to replace the Nex-6/E-mount setup that can offer a good all round setup that's a bit smaller and lighter than the D750 setup plus can do decent video.  

I've never got on with the NEX-6 as the body is so badly mismatched with its lenses so I've been toying with an A7III, 28mm F2, 85mm F1.8 and a 24-240mm.  I've tried an A7RII and the handling is a lot nicer than the Nex-6 although I recently bought an RX1r which makes the 28mm F2 less useful.  As I now have four separate mounts I'm really wary about investing in another.

I'm also assuming Nikon are going to go with something to rival the A7 series but maybe they're more thinking of an A9 rival for high speed performance since mirrorless cameras can go very fast which would make sense to use F-mount lenses with.

snerkler

I wouldn’t be able to run both FF DSLR and FF mirrorless, therefore if I want to switch I would have to sell the DSLR to fund the new body. As already stated, to swap the whole system initially would would be too costly therefore needs to be done in stages. If I used your philosophy of wanting to do the swap in one go, or even run two FF systems for some reason it would never happen. Well, not unless my six numbers came up

I don’t see it as the worst of both worlds, if done right. In theory the new mirrorless with adapter will be no heavier, and maybe even lighter than my D850, so worst case scenario is that I have a mirrorless version (size and weight) of what I have already but with the option to make it smaller and lighter at some point. On top of that I gain the benefits of EVF and much better live view at the expense of looking through optics. Realistically I think Nikon need to bring something out that at least matches the A7iii performance, in which case it most certainly will be able to replace and even supersede many DSLRs. The advantages of mirrorless are not just size and video, there’s so many more possibilities with AF, displaying DX view that fills the frame, silent shutter, shutter speeds well above anything a DSLR can reach (handy for the 0.95 aperture lenses that the z-mount will be able to use ), faster FPS, zero blackout, peaking, zoom focus, and a host of other things. I have no doubt that mirrorless will eventually trump DSLR in all areas.

As far as the use for an f-mount adapter though I just get the impression that we are coming at it from different perspectives

Johnmcl7

I just don't share your optimism about how well they can make F-mount lenses work with the mirrorless bodies as no other company has been able to do that so I don't think your worst case scenario is anywhere close to the worst case at all.  Realistically you're going to have a setup which is worse than your D850 for a slight size/weight benefit which given how much better the D850 is than the D750 seems an odd loss to take, as I wouldn't take that hit on the weaker D750.

Those features you've mentioned are nice touches but they're not the fundamental benefits that size and video are, at least not for some time yet and I can't see Nikon leaping ahead of Sony in that regard either.  I just can't see Nikon being able to produce something that trumps both the D750 and A7 series even putting aside the F-mount compatibility issues, I guess I see your point of view if you're hugely optimistic but I'm really not. I'm not sure Nikon even want to produce the system you've mentioned unless they ready to hand in the towel with their DSLRs which given the strong sales of the D850, I don't see happening.  Also as far as I'm aware, Sony will not sell their stacked sensor technology to others which is what Nikon would be in dire need of to produce such a fast system.

Also the benefits of mirrorless don't come for nothing, in particular they're very poor at power efficiency and thermals which is unavoidable when you have to constantly power a sensor and either a high resolution EVF or screen.  Sustained high speed shooting quickly pushes up the temperatures even in the cold Scottish climate. I was shooting with the D750 in Germany where it was very hot and the camera didn't miss a beat getting hammered all weekend.  I have many of the benefits you mention on other cameras and many sound great on paper but I don't find that much benefit in reality, do you find 1/8000 shutter a limitation?  I've tried shooting at 1/32000 but even at F1.8 and during bright sunshine I needed to go to high iso and the results I'm not convinced are any more useful than the DSLR at max shutter.  Similarly the ultra high speed bursts I find quite difficult to use and actually the DSLR's sustained performance is more practical (aside from the D750's little buffer)

I guess they did get the BSI tech for the D850 which was indirectly competing with some of the Sony's, I wonder though if Sony would be less keen when it's a direct rival to one of their cameras.

shotokan101

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/07/25/its-official-the-new-nikon-mirrorless-camera-will-be-full-frame/

Johnmcl7

Reading their press release it's certainly vague but it implies to me they're aiming it as a companion system rather than a DSLR killer, particularly:

shotokan101

Yes I don't see them dropping dslr in the near future - they will want to see the take on rates and demographics for the mirrorless first for sure

snerkler

Well tbh I'm skeptical about the adapter hence why my posts have always said IF Nikon can make a good adapter. Going by their attempt at an adapter for the V1 I'm not very optimistic at all, however I still maintain that if they want the new mirrorless to persuade DSLR users to migrate across they HAVE to make a good adapter. Obviously this is just my opinion (well maybe not just mine, there's plenty on TP that share this opinion ). If they don't the new mirrorless won't have substantial sales (imo) and it will take a long time to get it off the ground.

Battery life on mirrorless is getting there tbh, some A9 shooters are getting well over 1000 shots per battery charge.

Do I need more than 1/8000 shutter? Not now I can shoot at ISO 64, but then I've never shot at f1.4 in sunny conditions. That being said, in Dubai I had to shoot at 1/32000 at f1.8 on the Olly, but this is only 200 at base ISO.

My plus points about mirrorless weren't necessarily things that I need or want though, all I was trying to point out is that mirrorless don't have some of the limitations that DSLRs have and therefore they can push tech further and further (granted beyond what most folk may need). One big plus though will be when they eventually make global shutters. You can use full electronic shutter with no drawbacks, but not wearing out the shutter.

I don't think anyone's expecting it to be a DSLR killer tbh, and I think there will always be those who shoot DSLR. It does feel a bit like when Digital first came out though, people still preferred film but as DSLRs got better and better eventually most people switched to digital. I think within 10 years or so most people will be shooting mirrorless, although there's always a chance that someone will drag this statement up in 10 years and I'll have egg on my face

godsakes

I've personally not been fussed about mirrorless.... mirrorless in of itself won't meaningfully open new doors for me (especially given size/weight savings seems limited), what'll interest me is when they'll get a sensor (say a far more advanced variant of the sony A9 sensor) that can readout the entire frame instantly at which point electronic shutters (and indeed electronic everything makes more sense). That would open up doors as you could potentially overpower the sun with something much weaker than a studio sized monolight