Home Automation and Alarm Systems

Pickles86

Hi all,

I’m currently building a new house and am starting to think about wiring to support home automation. I’ve read a lot on these forums and installed a wired home network in my previous house so I have a little bit of knowledge but it’s still fairly basic. I was previously running an Athom Homey and lightwave switches I then switched to Fibaro modules to give a bit more customisation although I had a few reliability issues with the homey and fibaro so I may switch back to lightwave for the light switches as I like the ease and look of them.

I’ll be running Cat6 to each room back to a patch panel etc and ensuring I have a neutral at each light switch with a 47mm back box I may even run a cat6 to each light switch and just leave it tucked away in case it ever comes in handy.

The key for me in this installation is central control I want everything within a single app. I’m going to have a couple of IPads wall mounted around the house with a dashboard showing key information, I’ll then manage the intelligent side of things using scenes and flows with the homey whilst still allowing local control for the family.

One thing i don't know too much about is what the best solutions are for integrating an alarm system, I want to go for a wired system so I don’t have to worry about changing batteries etc and it’s no trouble to run the cables to do so. Does anyone have any recommendations on what wired alarm systems can be used perhaps something that has Z wave integration so I can use with homey. I already have CCTV covered using my synology NAS and some hikvision POE cameras.

Thanks
Chris

mushii

Keep your security and your HA separate. Install a decent BS EN 50131 Grade 2 or 3 alarm stand alone from your HA network.

I have installed Cytech Comfort systems which are as good as it gets for combining HA and Security and I would not advise it again. A single point of failure for both security and HA can leave your property seriously compromised in the event of a critical system failure. Loxone owners may have a different position, as Loxone like Cytech integrate both together. The difference between the 2 is that Comfort can be configured to meet 50131, Loxone as far as I understand cannot.

Current alarms that contain ZWave do so as a Controller not as a Node and therefore cannot be integrated with another controller.

If you want integration, consider using an output channel off an alarm with a Fibaro Smart Module so that on activation it can trigger other ZWave events such as lights or ZWave sirens.

This way your alarm is still independent of your HA but can integrate with it.

I understand the wish to bring everything under one umbrella but somethings are better not done that way.

Please understand this is not a criticism of Loxone, it is a hugely powerful system with some brilliant features, it is just that I personally do not agree with integrating HA and Security in one system.

Desmo

On the other hand, it depends how serious you want to go with your alarm.

I'd never have a separate alarm as it is so using my HA system works fine for me. It auto sets itself based on who's at home and sends me an alert if any of my window, door or movement sensors are set off. It works perfectly fine for me.

mushii

My HA system can alert me to user occupancy or certain doors / windows being open, but this independent of my Home Security. Most Domestic / Commercial grade alarms are built and designed to offer resilience to false alarms from various external agents (temperature, EMF, Software updates etc. Its a requirement of their certification and compliance). HA systems are often prone to many of these things and I have yet to find a system (even on Crestron installs) where the system is 99.999% reliable and not susceptible to gremlins or other factors. I know that if I am working away, my wife and family can set the alarm and rely on it to do its job and if it goes wrong (components fail) then she can get an alarm engineer out to fix it and that it isn't going to go off at 3.17am because a component in the system upgraded its firmware that threw the system out of kilter and she doesn't know how to fix it.

As I have said, I have installed high end integrated Alarm / HA systems and its often the HA component of the system that can prove to be problematic especially if they are interfacing with other technologies, leading to faults and false alarms.

Conversely you will find other AVF members who will have horror stories about conventional alarm installs (bare in mind there are probably 10,000  conventional alarms to every 1 HA alarm system) and members here who have had flawless installs of HA integrated systems, with no problems at all.

These forums are all about users opinions and experiences. My wife complains if a light doesn't trigger when she asks Alexa to turn it on. If the alarm goes wrong, we can dis-able it for 24 hours until we can get our engineer out, the house still functions. On the other hand if the HA fails it is me who has to fix it, which is not always possible if I am not there. She can pull the plug on Homeseer but a third party would not be able to come and fix it, the alarm still functions. It really is horses for courses. Think about the various scenarios and decide what would work best for you, that ultimately should drive your decision process.

jelockwood

I recently came across the Cytech Comfort.

It along with their KT05 touch screen looks like one of the few alarm systems to recognise we are now in the 21st century.

I am not sure I understand mushii's comments fully. As far as I can see the Comfort box is a self-contained alarm system but has the capability to talk to standard HA systems. If the alarm sensors are connected directly to the Comfort then the alarm side is still fairly self-contained.

I would personally like to use HA type sensors in some cases such as fire/smoke/CO via Nest Protect and water leak sensors as these are all typically far more advanced than typical alarm system sensors. Similarly linking a HA smart door bell rather than a typical dumb door intercom - including Cytech's own one and possibly a smart door lock.

Yes this overall will reduce security from the perspective of an alarm system but the alarm system using its own motion and door open sensors would still on that side be fairly self contained.

I have not been able to find details on the Cytech site about what (alarm) sensors to use nor whether it has or can use a standard outdoor wired siren, nor whether it has a standard battery backup module. Perhaps you could answer these questions? Is it limited to standard wired alarm sensors or are there any wireless options? For windows wireless is a lot easier.

mushii

I have fitted Comfort Systems and the Alarm and the HA are pretty tightly integrated they are not 2 separate systems, or a security system with some HA functionality. Misconfiguration of the HA, depending on how it is programmed can have significant impact on how the security side behaves. Happy to answer any specific questions.

Yes you can use any standard PIRs. Yes you can use an SCB/SAB bell box. It is not designed around wireless options. Yes it has its own battery backup. But it does not talk to other HA systems, it is a Home Automation system with interfaces to other technologies.

I really iffed and ahhed about fitting Comfort or even just its HA engine without the alarm, but at the end of the day its core engine is old technology and the interfaces arent quite a nice or as slick as I would like them to be, in a modern HA world.

I would recommend that you looked at other integrated systems before taking the plunge with Comfort.

R-CAD

For me, as I have said before, if you do not require 50131 certification (for monitoring and police/fire response), then an properly designed and installed HA system can offer a far more flexible alarm system than a typical domestic alarm install.

Integrating HA and alarm avoids double counts on sensors and wiring.

My experience has been more (but not that many) false alarms from a professionally, newly installed, dedicated alarm system in my previous property, than I have experienced in the last 3 years with a fully HA alarm system (Loxone). False alarms aside, I now have a much more comprehensive alarm system, with more features and many more options for configuring.

mushii

@R-CAD  is probably the forum's leading knowledge on Loxone and has a much deeper understanding on the systems benefits and niggles. If you are looking at an integrated HA and Alarm system, I would advise picking his brains first, before looking at Cytech too much. Cost wise I think that for a fully featured Comfort Install you will be looking at a similar cost to Loxone.

Fabien

I run Cytech Alarm as well as a separate HA (Indigo) system. HA connects to Cytech Alarm over LAN and monitors each sensor in parallel to to whatever the Alarm is doing (this is even when disarmed)

The two are therefore linked but cannot take each other out of action. I just benefit from all the hardwired sensors that are already linked to the Cytech Alarm to activate HA functions

Fabien

mushii

@Fabien, that is a very expensive way of implementing HA and Security and other than accessing the PIRs makes the HA element of Comfort pretty much redundant. Are you using Comfort's HA engine for anything at all ?