Advice Needed on Wiring and Home Automation for House Extension and Renovation

mushii

@xxGBHxx talks a lot of sense and quite honestly he has provided very similar information that I would have provided. I use a mixture of ZWave Fibaro modules and Hue Bulbs in my own home. which I find a reliable combination (I tend to use Hue bulbs in standard or table lamps, although I have some GU10s and LED ribbon in my cinema room). I have been involved in HA from the eye-watering down to the DIY and being honest,if you are happy to do a bit of maintenance and programming yourself, you can achieve some really nice results.

With regard the HA camp, I fall into the 'it should all be seamless' category. Much of my HA runs on timers and events, so requires very little human interaction with the system, beyond what is normal - e.g. light switches. I also do not believe that we should have to train the house occupants or visitors to 're-learn' how to interact with daily simple operations (such as turning lights on or off) if the interface is clunky or too different, then the interface is wrong. For example, I use echo dots a lot around the house, they do not change a basic interaction with say my kitchen AV, you can turn the amp on with either the remote or the button on the front, or you can ask Alexa to play Spotify or Tune-in on Kitchen and it happens. Yes my family had to learn an 'additional way' to control the interface, which IMHO is easier, but it doesn't prohibit them using a more traditional route either. Similar with light switches - Homeseer will run events and scenes with my lighting, based on timers or other external triggers, but my family can still use a light switch, as a light switch, or they can ask Alexa to 'turn on kitchen counter lights', which if they are not on (which they normally are if we are at home and it is after dusk) she turns on the under cupboard lighting. When I go to bed, I say 'Alexa good night' and she turns off all of my downstairs lights, except for the hall (Hue) lamp, which dims to 30%. At 12.30  she will do that anyway as a timed event unless I over-ride it with the command 'Alexa Stay Up Late' which kills the 'Good Night' script.

Homeseer has probably the worst GUI of any HA software / appliance on the market, but it is hugely powerful and has a long pedigree. I would not recommend it to a novice Home Automater, but instead would recommend Homey, Fibaro home hub which are easier to program and have prettier front ends.

Finally on the point of wiring. Many electricians today will actually wire lighting switches with a neutral at the socket, which makes the wiring and choice of modules far easier. I would always recommend (if you can) 47mm deep back boxes as it makes wiring and containing the modules far easier.

Dave02

Thank you @xxGBHxx and @mushii for some very valuable advice. Sorry, been a very long work week and not made it on here for a few days but did manage to take the plunge and purchase some Honeywell Evohome kit from eBay. Re budget/ where I am in the levels of HA I believe I'm somewhere in the middle. For years my only automation has been with my home cinema in the form of custom remotes, which I have always programmed myself (Nevo, as previously mentioned being the main one, but as it was discontinued found I need something new - still not found the ideal replacement). Lighting and heating have been on my agenda for a while but ultimately held off from doing anything until now undergoing a major extension and renovation of my home. I may consider adding security to the list but it's not an immediate objective but will give some consideration. Adding a modern doorbell with video/ intercom over internet is also of interest.

One of my challenges is that I was missing some of the basic information, particularly which are some of the main companies to look into as options for  mid range system. Control 4 I have heard of, but not the others mentioned, so will certainly look into them now and most definitely get my electrician to put in 47mm back boxes (they've only done the utility room, understairs cupboard and downstairs bathroom so far, so have plenty of opportunity to get the deeper boxes done elsewhere.

A common approach of mine is to buy used, which allows me to buy higher budget kit than I may otherwise get. Whether or not that puts me anywhere near something like Crestron I don't yet know as there's so much kit that it's difficult to know where to start. I haven't ruled it out yet, but expect some of the midrange names mentioned are far more likely and also more sensible options for me. Going the used option can sometimes also mean that I will keep my options open, as in the case of Tado vs Heat Genius vs Evohome, it was finding the right setup at the right price that made the final decision (although was prepared to buy new), as I'm sure I would have been fine with either.

Dave02

Having invested in Evohome and now nearing installation time (previously thought it would have been installed by now) my electrician has advised that Evohome does not support electric underfloor heating, which I also confirmed with a call to the Evohome shop. Given that I am looking for a single system to control the heating in my house and will now have radiators, wet underfloor heating and electric underfloor heating to control I am now seriously considering a last minute change of system.

My first question is whether it's possible to use any of the Evohome radiator TRVs or underfloor heating controller with any other system, or if I need to replace everything? Re-looking at everything now, but starting favourites are currently Genius, Heatmiser and still possibly Tado, but others also considered.

neilball

Evo will quite happily control all kinds of electric heating including electric UFH, but it’s more involved due to the higher electrical loadings and need for additional safety/protection devices to be kept in circuit to prevent damaging the heating elements and/or the floor. I have many such installations under my belt, but I only support installations that I’ve designed and supplied/commissioned, I don’t support kit bought/supplied by others. For jobs like this I would expect to supply bespoke wiring drawings showing how to electrically connect all the equipment for the electrician to follow during installation and to provide a record of how it’s al wired for the homeowner to keep (so it can be maintained later without needing to start attempting to trace all the wiring connections).

Part of the difficulty is that you can buy Evo off the shelf but it is not aimed at or supported as a DIY system by the manufacturer. I get calls from users all the time who have found my via the Honeywell “find a specialist” page on the website or some who have been out in touch directly by Honeywell as they are stuck with a partially installed system, but do not understand why I will not help them complete the install for free.

It’s a shame that the Honeywell site does not allow more in-depth filtering of specialists so they could qualify the types of system they can cover as homeowners/users are left to try and assess this without actually knowing what are the important questions to ask an installer before they decide to use them!

It might be worth speaking to Evo Home Shop to see if you can buy some detailed system design advice and help, but I’d expect it will be chargeable as the margins on the kit are simply too low to give away this bespoke project help for free. I’d also expect that you would find the same issues with any of the other systems you mention - the controls are probably perfectly capable of doing what you want in most cases, but it’s finding the suppliers/installers with knowledge and experience to make it work for you properly/safely.

Dave02

Thank you for your comments. Based on these I will talk to the Evohome shop again tomorrow, but I did already speak to them on Friday and they advised that there was no Evohome sensor for electric underfloor heating so could not be done. Looking into the topic further (types of heating supported by different smart control systems) I have also found other references online that state that Evohome does not support electric underfloor heating. I can see that Tado, Genius and Heatmiser definitely support both wet and electric underfloor heating but for Heatmiser (which was recommended by my electrician) I can't see how it controls radiators so may also call them tomorrow.

neilball

As I said, Evo does definitely support all formats of electric heating, but you have to use separate contractors and floor stats/sensors to keep everything safe. I can imagine that it often easier to say something definitely does not work with a particular application when it gets slightly complicated rather than taking the time to fully detail all steps needed to ensure full compliance with all aspects required.

Dave02

I decided to call Resideo (Honeywell Home) technical support. They also confirmed that it is possible for Evohome to control underfloor heating, but could not tell me how and advised that my installer could call their installer technical support line (I called the consumer technical support line). I then called the installer technical support line myself and they were able to advise exactly what needs to be done, but whilst it didn't sound too complicated it did not all make sense to me so will get my installer to have a discussion with them. I did also speak to Evohome Shop who were not willing to help at all, due to the fact that officially Evohome does not support electric underfloor heating.

Considering everything I will now continue with Evohome and hopefully shouldn't have any major problems to get everything installed.

Dave02

Just a further update from me. My installer called Resideo and was concerned that installing Evohome for electric underfloor heating would be too much of a botched job. I'm yet to decide what to use for the electric underfloor heating, but have since invested in Honeseer which I saw can control both Evohome and some other systems, plus will also control the Fibaro Dimmer units I have invested in.

Open to recommendations for electric underfloor heating at the moment, plus also for proximity sensors which I would now like to try out as well.

HomeGettingSmarter

Hi, I did a similar remodel last year and installed a six zone EvoHome system combining both wet UFH, rads and two areas with electric UFH, plus an electric plinth heater in the kitchen. I use Honeywell BDR91 relays to control the pumps & valves for each zone, the boiler and domestic hot water loop are also controlled by BDR91 relays.

The BDR91 relay can only control a current up to 5A, so if your electric heating power output is greater than 1kW then you will need to use a relay (a mechanical Contactor, or SSR) to step the current up. As mentioned previously, EvoHome does not have an in-floor temperature probe, so you will need Honeywell room 'stat in each zone, something like the HCW82 or DT92E1 will do fine.

The problem you will run into, is that when the Evo Home master unit switches on the BDR91 of an electric heating zone, it will also send a heat demand to the boiler. Which means your boiler will run even when you are only uaing an electric heating zone. Honeywell could easily update their software to so that a zone can be flagged as electric heating, then not switch on the boiler when heating that zone, but they have no plans to do that.

Hope this helps.

HomeGettingSmarter

PS. I eventually removed my electric heating zones from the EvoHome system and used www.warmup.co.uk thermostats instead.