Camera for overhead piano filming

jwillans

I occasionally record piano videos for my YouTube channel and have been using a Canon G16 for the video (audio is recorded independently).  Recently I have wanted to also capture an overhead angle and bought a GoPro4 black.  This is used in linear mode and clipped to the music desk using an arm.  Unfortunately I am not happy with the quality of this, the arm tends to move with the vibration of the piano and the angle is not quite right.  Here is an example:

                               
I am of the mind that a better quality camera mounted on the ceiling is the right way to go and I'd like advice on cameras for doing this with the following criteria:

- be relatively light
- have a tripod mount
- be of high quality
- have zoom to adjust the perspective
- have live video viewable with zoom and record controllable via phone

I am thinking a used Panasonic GH3 would be a good option - although I'm not sure that the latest version of the android app supports this model.  Any other models that I should be considering ideally £400 or less including the lens?  Thanks in advance.

Terfyn

Many cameras will do this. Again I use my example of a Panasonic HC-V800 as I use this camera.
It is light and like all cams has a tripod mount.
The Panasonic App controls Record, Zoom and (where used,) the Panasonic VW-CTR1 pan/tilt head. It will run on Android phones and works as a "near field" connection. (Again my example)
The 800 has a decent Optical Image Stabilisation system which should eliminate any vibration.

Personally I would avoid a DSLR and opt for a camcorder as:-
(1) they are more versatile.
(2) you avoid any overheating on long takes.
(3) you can power the Panasonic cams from a 5V USB power pack or other USB source. Approx. running time 12 hours from a 20,000 mAh pack.

I use a Tascam DR-60D MkII for audio recording. One plus, it has an output which feeds directly into the cams mic socket. So the video has a sync track to mate with the quality recording in post production.

I note in another post you were looking for a tripod with an extension arm. Have you considered a camera crane fitted to a tripod? Neewer do a camera jib to fit onto a tripod and they also make a  Wall Mounting Boom Arm which it seems can be permanently mounted on a wall or ceiling.

jwillans

Thanks for your response. I've had a look at the camcorder you mention and I think on balance GH3 would be a better option. The GH3 is a true hybrid and I'm told does not suffer from the overheating issue that some cameras suffer from.

dosdan

The trouble with a camcorder is that they usually have a narrow field of view even at the WA end of their zoom range. You want a fairly wide FOV so you can see all the keyboard without having to mount the camera too high. You can get a WA-adapter lens that will widen the FOV more, but it may still be too narrow.

There's a surprising amount of vibration around a grand piano. A wooden floor/stage will resonate sympathetically, particularly to the bass notes.

Some cameras have IBIS (In-body image stabilisation), achieved either electronically (EIS), or electro-mechanically (moving the sensor with piezo-electric or electro-magnetic actuators), or OIS (optical IS - moving an element in the zoom lens assembly). This can work wonders in alleviating camera shake. The problem, however is that this is tuned to a specific frequency range that coincides with human muscular twitching. IBIS or OIS may or may not work effectively with counteracting vibration from the piano. You would need to try it first.

Rather than mounting the camera on the piano. mounting it on a mike stand with arm might be better. These can still transmit vibrations up from the floor, particularly if it's wooden.  A thick soft rubber matt between the floor and the legs of the stand may help.

Dan.

Terfyn

The HC-V800 will show the whole of a 61 note keyboard with its original lens from a height of 3ft above the keys. A 0.43x wide angle attachment would easily show a 88 note keyboard from the same height. Unfortunately I do not have a jib to carry the camera vertically over the keys, I record from over my shoulder.
To misquote "Practice Before you Preach".
Incidentally I play the organ and occasionally record as I play.

I presume it would be rare to require the whole 88 keys to be in shot at the same time as the higher the camera the less definition on the playing.

jwillans

Thanks for the continued insight.  I am going to mount the camera from the ceiling, there is simply no room for mounting this any other way given the tripod of the other camera and the microphone stands.  This should avoid the vibration issue I am seeing with the music desk mounted GoPro.  Increasingly leaning towards used GH3 given these can be had for < £300.  
What height would the standard Panasonic 14-45mm lens need be mounted to get fit the keyboard of about 5ft in length?  This lens has image stablisation which would eliminate any residue vibration.

Terfyn

I would prefer an expert opinion on this but my camera with a wide angle lens would work at 3ft this is equivalent to ~~15mm
If you look at the Wall/Ceiling Mounting Boom Arm, it may give you the adjustment you need provided the height from piano to ceiling is adequate.

I am picking up on Dan's idea of a mic stand with a boom (which I have). I will convert it to mount a tripod head to carry the camera. It may need some balance weights.

12harry

Hi,
-
This ceiling-mount may appear to be the solution, being further away from the vibration source....  However, until tried, you can't know the ceiling isn't moving also - It all depends on the construction and how far you are from the wall-connection to ceiling support beams.
Viewing your clip, I wonder that  you don't give a view from the front of the piano - that's the normal view when you see a piano in a room - and anyone that's attempted to play one will have many books similarly orientated. This can be achieved in Edit by changing the frame-orientation 180 degrees....  do this for a single clip, or more conveniently for one, or more tracks: "Ceiling-1" etc.

Conventionally, the best camcorder/camera is used as "Master" and this will have the best mic connected; as Terfyn suggested, it gives a sync'd track for editing. However, if the digital recorder sounds better, the tracks can be swapped easily enough while preserving alignment.
With modern camcorders ( yes, even HD ), you can apply a degree of zoom-in during Edit, so as to give the audience a better view - but if it's too much, you might want to use the Optical Zoom and play just those pieces where the fingering is particularly interesting (( I suspect this might include the very last note )).

Finally, the ceiling-mount appears to be what you need.... buy be aware of safety...anything mounted above should have a safety-wire to a stout anchor-point that is independent of the (camera-support). This must be flexible to prevent inadvertent movement, and short enough that it is clear of heads, lights, etc. IF/WHEN it is the only thing holding-up. Stainless-steel wire ropes about 3mm dia should be sufficient for almost any gear we are likely to be using.

Good luck....

Terfyn

Hi Harry. I'm worried about your house. You don't live on an earthquake fault do you?

Just to clarify, the Tascam is an audio recorder giving high quality audio plus, at the same time as the recording, it supplies an output for the camera at mic level to input a sync track on the video for aligning the audio tracks in post production. The sync track on the video is then muted thus making the quality recording available for the final render.
I have a matching pair of condenser mics plus a third mic with a figure of 8 pattern for mid/side recordings (and other uses) Because of the demand for Phantom Power, I use a small 5V USB power pack to augment the internal batteries. Phantom Power is available at 24V and 48V.