HD Camcorder recomendations.

talen2003

Please help, if you can. I know very little about camcorders, other than you look through one end and shoot with the other and would really like some advice.

I want to buy a camcorder, possibly second hand, for three different jobs coming up.

1) A new You Tube channel I intend to create
2) A semi-commercial venture shooting footage for a local community project
3) A wedding later in the year

The camera will need to produce high quality images AND sound, work equally well indoors and outdoors and have good low light capability

As far as the youtube channel goes my latest sony xperia phone would probably be everything I need, with 4k HDR video recording, image stabilisation etc - it's 2 and 3 where I think I need something better. The community work I need to be producing broadcast (or very near) quality footage and sound. I also need something with "presence", something that looks serious as I will need it to open doors for me. If I turn up with a gopro and smart phone I will not be taken seriously!

The first question I guess would be is a semi-pro camera of a few years ago offer better quality, dollar for dollar than a new mid range enthusiast camera. Budget is absolutely max at £500, 300-400 would be better. Something like the Sony NEX-VG10e for example. I would like something that records to somekind of memory card or disk rather than tape if possible, though the myriad Mini DV tapes I have from years ago still play very well, but simply for ease a card is so much easier.

having answered question one is there a particular make, range or model you might suggest?

I'd be very pleased to hear any thoughts.

Terfyn

I doubt you will get a semi-pro camera for that budget. £1000 would be a more realistic figure. Even the top end 4K consumer cams exceed £500.

For 2) & 3) a video editor could be needed. With a Wedding, for example, you might need a second camera operator and you might also need a decent audio recording.

Obviously there are decent 4K and HD consumer cams around the £500 mark. My camera preference is clear below and I have stuck with HD as it requires less computing power. If you could expand on your budget limits and give more detail of the local community project, we may be able to target your equipment requirements.

talen2003

Thanks for your help, I know I am trying to squeeze a quart out of a pint pot, budget wise at least, hence the thought of using second hand. The main issue is none of this is really for me. If it were just the youtube channel I would make do with stuff I already have.

The community project is to put together a series of short films about the village I live in. Fifty years ago somebody did the same with a cine camera and the parish elders have decided it would be good to repeat that project now. It means interviews with village elders, refilming some of the locations from the original films to record the changes and recording daily activities around the village. I'm not bothered about 4k for the same reason you list above, 1080p HD will suffice.

I guess what I am trying to work out is am I better spending 300-400 on a used semi pro camera or buy an off the shelf run of the mill new camera, which is still HD, Exmor sensor, image stability, massive optical and didgital zooms and 5.1 sound recording and cost £200 - 300. Our local camera store currently has a used NEX-VG10e for sale at £399, including spare batteries, cards, hard and soft cases etc and I'm led to believe he's willing to negotiate the price as he's had it for some time. If the second hand is a good option then is the model listed a good choice or are there better options, Sony, Canon or Panasonic preferred.

The wedding is a friends son. They are doing the wedding on a budget due to starting a new business. I am already doing the still photography, which is my forte, but they have asked if I can do a video too.

Regards the editing I have the 2017 version of Cyberlink PowerDirector for the odd bits of mobile phone footage I edit, is it worth buyong Corel over and above that?

Terfyn

If you are used to PowerDirector I suggest you stick with it. It may be you are comfortable using it.
VideoStudio is a good program but again there is a learning curve to cope with. If you want to give it a try then download a free 30day trial.
Sony's NEX-VG10e looks a good camera on paper but it is 10 years old and the current range of cams have made technical progress in the passing years. You would need to check its reliability especially if you are filming a wedding. A faulty camera at a wedding is an unimaginable disaster as the bride and groom don't usually want to repeat the process.

You will see I started with the V700 in 2010, the V750 in 2014 and the V800 last year. The difference between the 700 and the 800 is considerable, better lenses, better optical image stabiliser function (OIS) and better low light performance are examples. Plus you can get 4K at a reasonable price.

Interviewing the elders with a camera would suggest a remote mic and a tripod. Most of the high end cams have an external mic socket so you can get a good audio recording with a close up mic.

Hope this all helps.

12harry

Hi, It probably doesn't matter what Kit you use, provided you know what you are doing - most folks can't recognise a pro-camcorder particularly - so it's down to your attitude and putting the interviewee at their ease. Ideally, film outdoors ( for the Light), unless they have a Craft/trade they wish to promote ( you should be able to sell them this footage separately from any interview,  which should be Edited to be succinct. Audiences don't like long ramblings. ).
KIT
Probably the best thing to do is to "Try before you buy" if it's been in the shop a while and they know you . . .  Whilst I'll agree that "Tech" has moved-on, there is nothing like "Experience" and yr Photo-experience should help.
You might try joining a local Movie-Making club where there will be others who can assist - if you are making a movie about a village, you may need more than one camcorder ( e.g. if there is "Fair" to include ). Watching the films others make will warn you what not to do!
Sound is always tricky... our brains filter out background noises as we concentrate on what's interesting.... but the microphone won't - so for interviews you'll need to assess the room for noise, ( while you check the available light? )... and move the microphone closer to the person. ( You are buying a camcorder with Mic-in headphone-out ?? ).... Alternative is to buy an audio recorder ( Starting about £80 ).
However, your Budget is woefully low, since you'll need extra Memory, Batteries and a decent tripod ( sub £100 should do ).  Don't think the stabalisation will fix everything - even a budget tripod can make things look better, on screen. Although I've seen Club-footage that looks like no tripod was available.

Does you Photo-camera not do movies?  Most can nowadays and that might allow you to gain some experience creating the basic shots for "The Village".  Ideally you will want to vary the camera angles and height ( which is a pity that consumer tripods are so low - I use a monopod I made which can reach 12 feet, so shots can avoid the traffic. ). . . . . similarly, can't you ask the Community for a wad of cash?  This might be in exchange for a (v.small) number of finished DVDs ( which most folks can Play )..... but retain the right to sell extra copies, as most interviewees will need more than one, they should pay for extras.
You need to be aware of Copyright too.... both visual and audio ( so don't use your fav. pop music ) - there are Internet sources of "Royalty-free" music (  You give them a mention in the Credits ). Whilst a street-scenes may be OK, if you frame a well-known Brand and linger - that might cause you problems - better to avoid. If a local artist is showing their work, there is an inherent "agreement" between you, but they might like to view the footage, in case you include any commercial work they are doing. Ideally get them to repeat the interview and take some "Cutaway" shots, to avoid one static scene - Close-ups of their work/tools/old photos are worth including - Ask and you may find they have oodles of stuff in a cupboard. Finishing an interview can be difficult, esp. as you really want is quite short (after the Edit ).
Weddings
- they can be mighty tricky.... stick to the Stills... is my advice; at least until you've used all the Kit for a year, or two.

Good Luck.

talen2003

Sorry for not replying for a while, things have been moving on. I thought I'd just post an update. I went to view the Sony on sale locally and spoke to the owner of the shop who was very upfront about the good, and bad points of the VG10e. It's one of Sony's first high end camcorders to record to card rather than mini DV and is more of a high end enthusiast camera than a true semi pro machine, hence the lack of XLR inputs. Also the view finder is quite poor, the lcd screen doesn't fully rotate to allow you to monitor from in shot, the gui is quite poor and awkward to use making set up quite a chore, and everything has to be done through the on screen menu, which is not touch screen so it's very long winded. He arranged for me to return when his son was in the shop, his son being much more of a camcorder expert and he was able to answer most of my questions and make some reccommendations.

My biggest concern, "is it worth buying an older semi pro camera rather than spend similar money on new equipment" is a resounding yes. Quite simply, on my budget I will not get what I need on a new camera. An older semi pro will still have a far better lens and imaging sensor than even spending £1000 - 1500 new. I have been given some suggestions of machines to look at which are stand out machines but which record to tape, but which have suitable output to allow me to record to an external recorder, such as an Atomos Ninja 2 or Ninja Blade. That combination will provide me with everything I need for a used cost of around £600 and the Atomos will also be useful for other purposes.

The other update is that the village community fund has agreed to fund part of the equipment, it will not cover the cost but will just about cover either the camera, or the recorder.

So at the moment I am looking for a used Atomos which is the tougher thing to find then I'll start looking at cameras which should be much easier. A lot of people are dumping old semi pro cameras because they lack the facilities that the Atomos will provide.

Terfyn

Very pleased that the village fund is financing some of the equipment.

Even so you should consider progress. Will the sensor chip be up to current standards for example? As for lenses, my own consumer cam has a Leica lens and it performs as I would expect.
Have you looked at, for example, the Panasonic HC-MDH3E or the HC-X100E or semi-pro cams from the Canon range. All within your budget range.

talen2003

Thanks Terfyn, I have looked at the two models you suggest but even looking at online auctions, which I would rather not, they are well over my ideal budget. In terms of lens and sensor chip, the semi pro cameras I am looking at will still be well in advance of today's consumer cameras. What will be out of date is the recording side, they will not offer the latest formats and will not be 4K, but that is not necessarily an issue. I don't need latest format, I don't need 4k and I can't afford to pay for things I don't need, (or should I say I am unwilling to, for a project which consists mainly of favours). As a home cinema avid for the last 30 years I appreciate the cost of chasing the latest standard. My spare bedroom is like a museum of once high end home cinema equipment, mainly Yamaha from Pro Logic, to Dolby Digital and beyond, DSPs, Laser Disc Players, Projectors. Well over £20,000 worth when new, and now obsolete.

I just need a camera which will produce an excellent quality image and which allows me fuller control than would an average consumer unit. It's the lack of control that is ruling the Sony out. I have been in contact with the person who teaches videography at our local college and he has suggested the Panasonic camera they use, the AG-HMC81. Introduced in 2010 it was still on sale until 2017, it records in full 1080HD to SD card so media is cheap and plentiful and offers all of the control I need, or at least all the control I can handle. It offers HDMI output direct from the sensor so I can add an Atomos recorder at a later date if I want to. On the downside it's an on the shoulder model, and not the best looking design. There seems to be less internet resource available for it too, than for the Sony. Enter any Sony model number into a search angine and it returns any number of results from how to use, hints and tips, spares and accessories. Do the same with Panasonic and the cyber silence is deafening.

Ultimately, I appreciate that I am trying to achieve a £3-5k result with a £300-500 budget. Obviously something has to give. I'm still waiting to see if, and if so by how much, that budget might increase with help from the community fund.

12harry

Adding an atomos later, as Budget allows, is a good idea as it should avoid the compression needed for recording to SD cards. Also the LCD will be an improvement, but allow extra for the recording Media - HDD's are very reliable ( as used in many portable PCs) and huge capacity for the money. The larger file-size (Atomos) may push your PC spec. but this too can be updated as funds allow. You'll need spare batteries and cables (just in case).
FWIW  I guess seeing that old Sony is what may sway you - esp if you can get some Tutoring and maybe some level of G'tee. Having that extra battery is essential, -  as it's easy to run out of juice.  However, a more-modern camcorder will benefit in the Lens department as well as Optical stab.  -This is not an issue for interview/wedding ( standard scenes), using a tripod..... may be worth seeing friends' Wedding Videos  -to see what "experienced PROs" can do . . . . Things like having an assistant for audio-placement as well as holding reflectors for static-shots will be a great help - but they need to be experienced, to be useful. Many weddings are shot using DSLRs - for that shallow DoF effect - you can turn-up at local weddings as sus out the gear and Operations...
Quality pro-gear should give you some inner-confidence . . . . but there is nothing like "experience" . . .  Get to know your camcorder and all other gear; so it's second nature.

Hope that helps....

talen2003

So, to bring this to conclusion. Having met the community association I now have a clear idea of what they want, some indoor and outdoor filming around the village, coverage of some of the village events including new footage of places in the original cine film which we now know was shot on a Kodak Zoom 8 in 1961. There will be interviews with some of the elders and characters of the village, all of which will be edited into a roughly forty five minute film and will be reproduced on DVD, alongside the original cine film which is currently being restored, digitised and edited by a professional. This film will take the format of a year in the life of the village with filming starting in October, and lasting fifteen months ending at Christmas 2020 and the finished DVD going on sale in 2021 to mark the 60th anniversary of the original filims.

I have not been able to dissuade the blushing bride from having a wedding video, I am already providing the wedding car and doing the still photography for the wedding so my outfit for the day will be mostly blue with a big red S on the chest. Thankfully the parish church do not permit filiming or photos during eny services so I don't have to worry about that part, just the reception - speeches and the slow descent into communal inhebriation.

To that end I have purchased an Atomos Ninja 2, brand new and unused "old stock" from a camera shop via ebay and a Sony HVR-Z5 camera from a member of a local(ish) video club who has upgraded his equipment recently and now finds the old Sony HDV kit redundant. It comes with a plethora of high capacity batteries, chargers, three video lights of varying quality, one very good with colour temperature adjustment, one average and one typical ebay chinese jobbie, serveral tapes and a mono stick. It was professionally serviced before being "layed up" and altogether with the Ninja they come in at the merest smidgen over my £500 budget, though I still have to buy HDD's for the Ninja (2 of), an HDMI cable and mount to attach it to the camera.

I already have an adequate tripod for my stills work, the VCA can supply suitable microphones for the interview work and the camera already has a really good shotgun mic attached. So with those extra bits to buy I estimate being within £100 of the original budget, and that will be offset by sales of the DVD, for which I will receive £2 per copy donation towards equipment, and with sales estimated between 150 - 200 copies all should be good.

Thank you everybody who has contributed and helped with this thread. I'm currently in the process of charging all of those batteries, so I'll go and change them over and put the next three in to "cook".